Quick Apology
I realize that I have been neglecting my posting duties lately... This has been because I have absolutely no time.
Since my appendectomy (which I am writing a post about), my great-grandparents arrived at our house, and will be staying for a month. In addition to that, I have been taking Driver's Ed for the past week and a half (with two days to go), trying to finish my school year in time, cutting grass, practicing piano for church, and playing tennis. As you can see, that leaves very little time for the computer.
Not to worry though... Once Driver's Ed is over, things should start to get better, and I will hopefully be able to post more.
As for now though...
Today the House of Representatives voted in favor of a constitutional amendment that would outlaw flag burning.
The House debate fell along familiar lines over whether the amendment strengthened the Constitution or ran afoul of its free-speech protections.Free speech? No. Flag burning is an expression of treason. I understand that many don't want the government to get involved in censorship, but to burn an American flag is to express wishes of violence against the United States. Is it really wise to allow people like that to roam free within our borders? 9-11 proved that it's not.
Supporters said there was more public support than ever because of emotions following the 2001 terrorist attacks in New York and Washington. They said detractors are out of touch with public sentiment.
"Ask the men and women who stood on top of the Trade Center," said Rep. Randy (Duke) Cunningham, R-Calif. "Ask them and they will tell you: pass this amendment."
Critics accused the amendment's supporters of exploiting the attacks to trample the right to free speech.
Treason should not be tolerated just because it involves some form of expression. If you don't like America, then get out; we don't want you here, and there are plenty of people who would love to take your place. You want to express your violent thoughts against the USA? Do it somewhere that you WON'T be taking advantage of the freedom she has to offer.
posted by jacob.thrasher @ 6/22/2005 09:30:00 PM
44 comments
44 Comments:COMMENT POLICY
Please refrain from the use of foul language. Any failure to comply will result in comment deletion.
Burning an American flag doesn't mean you want to commit violence against the United States of America. You say that 9/11 proves your point? How? It wasn't American citizens who burnt flags flying planes into the WTC.
The men and women of the United States military haven't fought and died to preserve the US flag. They've fought and died to preserve freedom. Placing the icons of the State before the freedom of the People is a bad move.
And how do they claim to speak for "the men and women who stood on top of the Trade Center"?
It's not exactly a *burning* issue either, as I believe only one (1) American flag has been burned on American soil in the past year.
No, they're protesting against some action of the United States. The flag is not the people. The flag isn't freedom. The flag is a piece of cloth.
And also, I keep hearing this argument from conservatives: "Don't like Bush? Get the frak outta America." Excuse me, but the purpose of freedom is to allow people to have a wide variety of viewpoints.
Plus, people are allowed to say they don't want free speech. That is the thing about free speech: it's free.
No, I mean free in the sense that you can say whatever you want.
I can say this:
"I DON'T WANT FREE SPEECH!"
because of free speech.
I'm allowed to say that. Freedom of speech means you can.
I'm also allowed to burn flags here in Australia, so I think I'll go and pile up all the little toothpick flags I can find and burn them. That's the freedom that Australian soldiers have died for. That's the freedom I'm going to exercise. And I'll do it to honor their sacrifices. Because if we don't use the freedoms we have, why bother having them at all?
And to rumpel's comment: someone might want to burn a flag in order to protest something, or just to stay warm if they were, you know, like, stuck in the middle of Alaska...
"I keep hearing this argument from conservatives: 'Don't like Bush? Get the frak outta America.'"
That's not what I'm saying. If you don't like our current leader, that's no reason to burn the flag that represents our country (nor is it a reason to leave the country). The flag does not represent the people who are currently in government; it represents the very nation we live in, and the system of government that holds it together.
Flag burning should be outlawed for the same reason that we can't bestow citizenship on anarchist immigrants, as both involve a disdain for the very basis of our society.
Again, the American flag does not represent any person or group of people. Instead, it represents the group of ideals that this country was founded upon, and if you dislike those ideals, then find a place where the system of government better suits your ideals.
No, the American flag just represents America. The consitution, on the other hand, you might be able to make an argument for that representing freedom.
Plus, what if I was reaallly cold?
The flag is a symbol, a tangible one people can use to show their feelings about government policies. If they wave it when they agree, why can't they burn it when they don't? People wear it on their heads, butts, and other unseemly places. I fought to defend the flag, and I have no problem with people burning it as a form of free expression.
>>>Flag burning is an expression of treason.
I completely disagree. Think about what this ruling does: it curtails your right to disagree with the U.S. Okay, so the form of disagreement outlawed is a highly extreme and virulent one… you could state that there are plenty of other, legal, ways of expressing your disapproval of the U.S., and you’d be right. Flag burning is really unnecessary.
But guess what. It comes at the cost of the stark absolute of freedom of speech, replaced by a relativistic, “Subject to U.S. Approval” stamp. Free speech is a freedom that must be defended at all costs. Where is the attitude of “I may disagree with what you say, but I’ll die for your freedom to say it”?
Well, free speech doesn’t include burning the flag, you say. Wrong. There is no “ideal” (even the political ideal of the U.S. flag) that is above criticism; to claim such a restriction is blatant iconography.
If freedom of speech is not defended as an absolute, even for something as politically disgusting as burning the U. S. flag, then there will inevitably be other, less innocuous restrictions of liberty.
I love my country. I’d be tempted to beat the $%#@ out of somebody who burned the flag. But they have the right to do it.
Let’s have less of the attitude of “My country, right or wrong.” That is an extremely anti-Christian ideal.
This whole situation reminds me of the conflagration of the Puritans and the Anglicans during the 17th century.
The Anglicans, as the state church of England, decreed that all ministers must wear a sacerdotal robe while preaching.
Well, up until this decree, the Puritan ministers *all* wore a sacerdotal robe during their ministry. So no big deal, right? Nope. Even though the Puritan ministers felt very strongly that you *should* wear a robe while preaching, they felt that the Anglican ruling violated the liberty of Christian conscience, by placing a restriction that was nowhere verified by either the Bible or the church creeds.
So they left the Anglican church.
There doesn’t seem to be many men or women who possess that kind of integrity today…
Oh, by the way...
Glad to see you're back, Neo!
: )
Fighting for another country is treason, selling secretes to the enemy is treason, spying for the enemy is treason, burning a piece of cloth made in China is an expression of speech!
If that is treason you might as well add, saying something negative about the President, Not converting to the Presidents religion, protesting the actions of the government to the list of treasonous activities. Before you know it your mom will be wearing a burka and you will spend all your time in school reading from the bible, if you don't already.
This will not become an amendment; it will go to the Supreme Court and will be struck down. By then we will have a Democrat in the Whitehouse anyway.
By the way this is one of the worst arguments you have ever presented and I suggest you go back and read up on how and why this nation was founded. Start with the 1st Amendment.
People don't burn flags because they hate America, well some do, and if so that is their right, but usually flags are burnt by people who don't want to lose America.
They would rather burn the flag than let someone else wipe their ass with it.
Don't you know that if a flag touches the ground you are supposed to burn it.
From WWW.USFLAG.ORG:
"When a flag is so worn it is no longer fit to serve as a symbol of our country, it should be destroyed by burning in a dignified manner."
"Note: Most American Legion Posts regularly conduct a dignified flag burning ceremony, often on Flag Day, June 14th. Many Cub Scout Packs, Boy Scout Troops, and Girl Scout Troops retire flags regularly as well. Contact your local American Legion Hall or Scout Troop to inquire about the availability of this service."
Treason:Violation of allegiance toward one's country or sovereign, especially the betrayal of one's country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies.
US Definition: The act of levying war against the United States or adhering to or giving aid and comfort to its enemies by one who owes it allegiance.
So where in the definition of treason or in the US Constitution do you find support for this amendment?
Thats pretty childish... Burning a flag under the protection of free speech is flaunting the very think you are trying to destroy.
Look at it this way. Merely burning the U.S. flag isn’t *wrong*…as Toad pointed out, “retired” flags are burnt as a sign of respect, rather than just throwing them in the trash. What’s *wrong* about burning the flag out of protest is the message, or what you’re *saying* by your protest.
What you are saying is that, basically, “I hate this country and everything it stands for. Let it burn.”
Is it illegal to say that? Is it illegal to write it? No, of course not.
But by burning the flag, you are saying exactly that, and NOW you are arrested for saying it.
Is that logical or consistent?
If you are arrested when you defy the entire structure of the U.S. and what it stands for by burning a flag, why aren’t you arrested for defying the entire structure of the U.S. in your writing? In your speech? In your artistic expression?
How far are you willing to go?
My point exactly, this opens so many doors it's scary.
There is absolutely no way this makes it through the Supreme Court; it is a waste of time energy and resources. What we should be doing is trying to figure out how we can keep people in other countries from burning our flags?
And Stephen reiterated the point I was making "exactly when is it legal to burn the flag" and "what is it saying" and does it matter what you are saying?
Burning the flag doesn’t mean you hate America, it means you are demonstrating that other people are doing things that undermines what America is all about, such as starting wars or making stupid unconstitutional laws such as this. And maybe the flag in these situations doesn't represent America; maybe they represents The American Government.
It's called abstract thinking; I know they don't teach it in the Bible or at home school but welcome to the real world.
Or maybe we should all get effigies of Bush and just burn them. Or is that illegal too? If this amendment passes, that's what's next.
And I also suspect that this amendment will lead in an INCREASE in the number of flag-burnings, people showing their disregard for it.
>>>Burning the flag doesn’t mean you hate America
I think it states that quite clearly you do… but so what? I should be able to say that “I hate America” and not be thrown in jail for saying it.
>>>It's called abstract thinking; I know they don't teach it in the Bible or at home school but welcome to the real world.
Hey, hey, Toad… I was on your side up until that one. That was a cheap shot. Although it IS alarming that so many Americans, including many erstwhile fundagelicals, think this to be a great law.
I guess more people need to home-schooled and read their Bibles, right?
RE: Stephen
No it doesn't mean you hate America, as I stated earlier, hating an administration or hating what that administration is doing is not hating America, or what America is supposed to be. And you’re right, even if it did, so what. Would it be unpatriotic? Maybe... Maybe sometimes, is that a crime? No.
Even so, would it be unpatriotic to hate an America that has taken away our freedom of religion, our right to bare arms, or our right to free speech? Shouldn't you protest an America such as that? Wouldn't that be patriotic?
One question;
What would China or Saudi Arabia do to one of its citizens that was burning their flag?
Is that who we want to be?
>>>Even so, would it be unpatriotic to hate an America that has taken away our freedom of religion, our right to bare arms, or our right to free speech? Shouldn't you protest an America such as that? Wouldn't that be patriotic?
Of course it would be patriotic to protest political abuses. The conception of “My country right or wrong” is nonsense.
But by protesting abuses of power you are recognizing that they ARE abuses; in other words you are protesting an aberration. You are saying that America has abandoned its original law, i.e., the Constitution. In your protest you are seeking to rebuild what was lost, not simply tear the whole structure of America down.
Flag burning is symbolic for desiring the complete destruction and abolishment of America. Yes, the flag represents the American ideal: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness”
To burn it is to symbolize your complete disagreement with those ideals. My point is, “so what?”
Hey, loneamigo, you really need to address your own nation. (BTW, where are you from?) Evidently you are unaware of the love of we, the American People for our symbol of freedom, our Flag. Our flag is the people; our flag represents the bravest and greatest people of this, the greatest Nation in the history of the world.
It would make me happy to send all the terrorist Muslims home with you; you who have no respect for what to others is sacred...except they (the terrorists) probably wouldn't want whatever place it is you call home.(provided the concept of "home" is something of which you are even aware)
Or am I free to say,"I really think the vein in your neck is a little too long; may I shorten it a bit? That would make me happy."
That is about as stupid as you sound, expounding on something about which you evidently know nothing.
Get a life, kid, and talk about something you understand. Only Americans are Americans!
"Only Americans are Americans!"
'oops'...After reading some of the stupid comments from so called "Americans" on this subject, I wonder about some of them!
I, too, served my country, not so a bunch of people who have no regard for anything can burn what should be sacred to all of us, but so we can be proud to call our Flag our symbol of freedom.
How about you dummies, may I call your mothers, sluts, because I am free to do so? May I assume you are the offspring of incestuous relationships? Of course not; you just have no value base that would require you to honor anything other than what you personally consider sacred.
May God protect me from those of you who have or will serve our country with no regard for our Flag; What will you defend? Please, not me; I'd rather do it myself!
CA -
You have no idea what you're talking about. When I was in the military, they taught me that I was defending a country, not a flag. The love of freedom, true freedom, means that people can do things you might not agree with. Of course, they can only take it so far. No killing, stealing, etc. But as far as protesting by doing one thing or another, I fought, in fact, GENERATIONS of my family have fought to protect that right. Some of my best friends have died for it, and they agreed wih me. Freedom means freedom for ALL. As long as the protesters aren't burning a person, leave them alone. They may not say what you like, but I (NOT YOU) have ensured them the freedom to do so. In fact, many of my friends in the military have bought a flag for the specific purpose of burning it in protest if this amendment passes. You cannont pick and chose whose freedom you're going to limit.
I was in the military, too. I was taught to have respect for a symbol of our freedom - the flag. I was taught as a child that the flag is to be respected, what it means, how we obtained our freedoms by the sacrifice of people who were willing to die to secure those freedoms for me, for you, for people they didn't even know.
I would never burn the American flag. I never gave it much thought until this debate and it was then that I realized what I had been raised to believe about our flag. I was raised to respect it. It is a powerful symbol. Burning it in protest is a powerful symbol as well and to deny the power of that symbolism is to lie. Just a piece of cloth? No.
It's along the lines of spitting in a soldiers face as they return from war. It's disrespectful to the nth degree. To burn the American flag is to say f*** you to America - and f the people who secured your freedom.
It's the same as burning your marriage certificate for instance. It's just a piece of paper, right? No. It symbolizes something very powerful. G'head. Burn your marriage certificate in front of your spouse - see what happens.
Very well said, Monicar...It's what I should have said...
I've been giving some more thought to this issue, and I admit that I've changed my mind.
Not on my opinion that flag burning should be legal, but on my argument for supporting this postion.
I read an excellent article by Murray Rothbard entitled "The Flag Flap". Here is what Rothbard has to say over the issue:
-------------------------------
As in the case of all dilemmas caused by the free speech doctrine, the entire problem can be resolved by focusing, not on a high-sounding but untenable right to freedom of speech, but on the natural and integral right to private property and its freedom of use. As even famed First Amendment absolutist Justice Hugo Black pointed out, no one has the free-speech right to burst into your home and harangue you about politics.
"The right to freedom of speech" really means the right to hire a hall and expound your views; the "right to freedom of press" (where, as we have seen, speech and action clearly cannot be separated) means the right to print a pamphlet and sell it. In short, free speech or free press rights are a subset, albeit an important one, of the rights of private property: the right to hire, to own, to sell.
Keeping our eye on property rights, the entire flag question is resolved easily and instantly. Everyone has the right to buy or weave and therefore own a piece of cloth in the shape and design of an American flag (or in any other design) and to do with it what he will: fly it, burn it, defile it, bury it, put it in the closet, wear it, etc. Flag laws are unjustifiable laws in violation of the rights of private property. (Constitutionally, there are many clauses in the Constitution from which private property rights can be derived.)
On the other hand, no one has the right to come up and burn your flag, or someone else's. That should be illegal, not because a flag is being burned, but because the arsonist is burning your property without your permission. He is violating your property rights.
Note the way in which the focus on property rights solves all recondite issues. Perhaps conservatives, who proclaim themselves defenders of property rights, will be moved to reconsider their support of its invasion. On the other hand, perhaps liberals, scorners of property rights, might be moved to consider that cleaving to them may be the only way, in the long run, to insure freedom of speech and press.
-------------------------------
Read the whole thing at: http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard79.html
Steven Lewis - I would never burn an American flag. That doesn't mean that I think the government should say that it should be illegal.
I believe that when people burn an American flag they are making a powerful - and disrespectful - statement. To deny that and claim that one is 'just burning a piece of cloth' is a lie.
S. Lewis: a very convincing argument there.
C A: If I had no right to comment on American politics, I'd have no freedom of speech. I've lived in America, have American friends, and what happens to them and their country definitely concerns me. America's a great country, probably no other country has made as great a contribution to democracy. I just don't want to see that disappear.
It's not the flag that matters. Freedom is more important than a piece of cloth, buggerit, why can't you see that? The American flag is a symbol of the American state, not of Freedom, not of Liberty, not of Justice. The American state may be founded on those ideals, but the flag is just a piece of cloth. And I'll do whatever the heck I want with a piece of cloth I own, thank you.
By the way, I come from 'straya, mate.
RE: CA
You are under the impression that you have no right to say that I was spawned from an incestuous relationship. Well the Supreme Court disagrees with you; See People vs. Larry Flynt and you will realize that you do indeed have the right to publish that someone was a result of an incestuous relationship.
By the way, not allowing someone to burn an American flag is saying that you hate everything this country is about, not the person burning the flag that is trying to preserve America, or make it better.
And yes, this also comes down to individual property rights; no one has the right to tell me what I can and can't do with my own property.
I never said I should be able to burn your flag.
If you really want to express your freedoms then you should burn flags when someone tries to walk on it, you should read banned books, you should go to any church you want to, you should publish something to discredit the president, just to show everyone else in the world that we can.
Not that there's a shortage of American flags being burned in other countries.
MonicaR:
I completely agree with your statement that:
“when people burn an American flag they are making a powerful - and disrespectful - statement. To deny that and claim that one is 'just burning a piece of cloth' is a lie.”
I think flag burning is disgusting, vile, and bordering on treasonous. On an emotional level, I would agree with Neo that flag-burners should be deported. The U.S. is better off without them.
But in the clear light of day, such emotionalism is wrong. On two counts. First, banning flag burning comes perilously close to suppression of free speech. Yes, it’s an action, and there is a difference, but there is a visible slope towards political censorship.
Secondly, as Rothbard points out, the proposed amendment is a violation of your property rights. If I own something, it is mine. Mine to do with what I will. The government does not have the right to tell me what I can or cannot do with my own property… whether it be the American flag, or my house, or my go-kart.
Neo’s (and other pro-flag amendment proponents) argument rests on subverting reason with emotionalism. Yeah, it’s a despicable act, yeah, it tugs on our patriotic heart-strings, yeah, we feel this strong surge of “My Country ‘Tis of Thee”… but in the process we ignore both common law and our Constitutional rights. That is real tyranny; and it’s sad that it comes in the guise of patriotism.
Kleo,
I don't mind at all! In fact, I'm quite honored. Thank you for the compliment!
Stephen,
Just wondering, do you agree with the Anarchist Exclusion Act, which prevents anarchists from gaining citizenship in America? Wouldn't flag burning (as we see it) would fall under a similar heading as anarchy?
Stephen yes I agree with you.
I don't like the fact that people burn flags. I don't like the fact that people who do burn flags then say that it means nothing.
I'd like to understand why Americans who have so much contempt for America still live here.
THEY DON'T.
They have contempt for conservatives, perhaps, contempt for uberpatriotism, perhaps, contempt for the government, perhaps, but hating a country is like hating a sock. It makes no sense, it's what's inside it that counts.
That sounded a little wrong, but... I'll let it stand.
"Do it somewhere that you WON'T be taking advantage of the freedom she has to offer."
If I have to go somewhere else, America isn't the one offering freedom.
>>>Wouldn't flag burning (as we see it) would fall under a similar heading as anarchy?
No. Anarchy, by definition, involves the overthrow of ALL legitimate authority. Flag burning implies overthrowing a specific authority, to wit: the U.S. government. Technically, flag-burners are protesting the “democratic republic” form of government. Adherents to any number of opposing government theories (theocracy, socialism, communism, democracy, fascism, etc.) could make such a protest; not just the anarchists.
As for the “Anarchist Exclusion Act”, I haven’t read it, so I can’t comment on it. But having a litmus test for citizenship is a completely different issue from property rights, which this Flag issue essentially boils down to.
Hey, man, America ain't the only "democratic republic" in the world. So it's not protesting against democratic republics, it's protesting against the actions of one particular democratic republic.
Wow, this has probably been the most interesting debate ive ever read on here!
From my point of view, its sort of a double edged sword, you tell someone they cant burn it, and its taking away a freedom, somehting the flag stands for. IM not saying the freedom id good, or right, it just is, and its being taken away.
But then flag burning is very insultive, and outlawing allows Americans who do have more respect feel a higher sense of security.
Either way, i dont like it, I dont support it, and I'm happpy im not incharge of makin laws.
"Its not ours to question why, its just ours to do or die!"
Actually, I'd suggest you don't go and see "The Patriot", as 1) the movie sucks and 2) it's a innaccurate rendition of the revolutionary war. Movies aren't history, I suggest you remember that.
Instead, go read this essay here, and don't participate any further in this discussion until you have.
Patriotism isn't a virtue in and of itself.
There is no such thing as "freedom of expression." Two things are constitutionally permitted: Freedom of speech, and freedom of the press.
In other words, it is fine to verbally criticize what the feds are doing, and it is fine to write about the feds negatively in a newspaper or other text medium.
Freedom of speech is not freedom to do anything and everything you want, it is just freedom of speech.
Besides, if Washington makes a constitutional amendment outlawing flag burning, then there will be no "Constitutional Right" to freedom of flag burning either.
For those of you who don't know what it is, this is the first amendment:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereor, nor prohibiting the freedom of speech, or of the press, or of the right of the people peaceably to assemble and petition the government for redress of grievances."
Where does this say, directly or indirectly, that Congress can't pass a Constitutional Amendment making flag burning permanently illegal?
Burning a flag, can mean one of as many things as any person can come up with. It can be a protest against freedom, a declaration of violence, criticism of the republic, or just complete ignorance toward politics and appropriateness.
The bottom line however is that any good institution, whether it be a high school club or a national government, must have some unifying symbol. Something that tells its members where they are welcome and reminds others of what they are missing out on. The American Flag is our national symbol. It represents everything that the U.S. stands for and when people are allowed to desecrate such an icon freely without fear of retribution then that symbol, the American Flag, becomes meaningless.
They need a unifying symbol? Really? Unfortunately, the Sasketchewan Milk Marketing Board doesn't meet your criteria, and therefore isn't an organization.
A national government may need a symbol. But the symbol shouldn't be elevated above the values for which it is considered to stand for. You consider the American flag to stand for freedom, justice, and prosperity. An Iraqi might see it to stand for death and oppression. Neither of you are right or wrong, because the values we assign to such symbols are purely subjective. You cannot objectively say the American flag stands for freedom.
Nobody's going to reply?
Hmmmm. Looks like freedom wins the argument.
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