Friday, May 27, 2005

Modern Mythology

The theory of Evolution reads like an ancient legend:

"Eons ago, long before the first man walked the earth, there was nothing. And then, after many years, there was something. Creatures were formed which were so strange that to even look upon them would strike fear into the hearts of men. They began as small plants, but through the magical powers of the passage of time, the plants would spawn small creatures.

As time went by, the small creatures would beget larger creatures, and creatures that walked on land, swam in the sea, and flew through the air. And these creatures would beget creatures stranger still, and they would sometimes reproduce after their own kind. After many billions of years (because time and necessity are the keys to physical change), man was created, the greatest of all animals, the spawn of the monkeys and the monkeys' children.

By pure chance, and the providence of the almighty absolutely nothing, a human was spawned of the opposite gender somewhere nearby. The humans mated and reproduced after their own kind, despite the natural laws that would have rendered them impotent, and after many thousands of years, man (from the house of Monkey) filled the earth and formed a thriving species.

Man's attempts to Evolve always met with disaster. They came up with names for their own attempts at Evolution: they called their spawn which would be better suited for life than themselves such things as challenged, deformed, and retarded. The new super-humans were not treated as great triumphs, but rather as beings to be pitied."

"And that is how, by the all-sufficient grace of the omnipotent,
omniscient absolutely nothing, man came to be on the earth."


The unproven theory (more like a hypothesis) of Evolution has been the subject of debates since it was first conceived by Charles Darwin. It has a tendency to crumble under close inspection, and was even doubtful in its creator's mind. Even the Father of Evolution could not convince himself of the truth of his assertions! Obviously, an assertion with as many fallacies as Evolution has cannot have a place in true science.

And yet, it is treated as though it were truth. Those who accept the THEORY of Evolution and thus ridicule Creationism are, in the name of logic and reason, forsaking logic and reason. Those who accept Darwinism or any other form of the THEORY of Evolution are placing their faith in something less observable (for observation is part of the scientific method) than the existence of God.

Let's go over a few things about Evolution.

Evolution requires massive amounts of time (even under the punctuated equilibrium theory). However, there is a stifling lack of evidence supporting an old earth. Truthfully, all methods of dating the earth either require excessive amounts of guesswork and assumptions (such as carbon dating), or they reach the conclusion of a young earth (amount of helium in the atmosphere, amounts of rock or water).

Evolutionists also love relying on anecdotes to prove their case. Ask for a missing link, they point to Lucy or Homo habilis. They don't point to a species; they instead refer you to individuals that have been pieced together to an incomplete skeleton from shattered bone fragments. Why is it that we can find lots of trilobites, and lots of dinosaurs, and lots of coelacanths, but when it comes to missing links, we can only find individuals? And most of all, why is anecdotal evidence considered sufficient in this supposedly scientific theory?

Let's go back to the Coelocanths for a second... Why is it that they have gone for (according to Evolutionists' numbers) 400 million years, and not changed? Isn't it high time they became frogs or something?

Now, talk to any Creationist, and he'll tell you he believes in evolution on a small scale. Survival of the fittest and the genetic variations that are already present and possible within a creature's DNA make it and its offspring more likely to survive. The Evolution that Darwin suggested would require a major change in genetic information, as well as the creation of enough new genetic information to actually keep the new organism alive and capable of reproducing. Only problem is that this has never been done. Such drastic genetic changes always kill the organisms.

It would be a very exact touch to have an animal evolve and be capable of reproduction. The most minute problems in the gametes (which help organisms reproduce and transfer genetic information to their offspring) can cause great damage to the offspring, which are never considered to be "Evolved." One extra chromosome and you've got a child with Down's Syndrome. Missing a chromosome, and they've got Turner's Syndrome. Try adding or taking away other chromosomes and genes, see what happens. Neither an increase nor a decrease in genetic information will result in a healthy individual, much less one that is better suited for survival. The only beneficial genetic "changes" that have been recorded for any living organism are the changes that are already built into that organism's genetic information. The color of a human's eyes, the color of the peppered moths, or selective breeding are all examples of this. However, these characteristics can change for as long as you want, but they will never yield a new species.

Even the very foundation of Evolution is flawed. The Big Bang theory requires that somehow, miraculously, vast amounts of order spring from complete disorder. So essentially, Evolutionists would rather believe their own THEORY than a longstanding LAW (the Second Law of Thermodynamics). This is, again, hardly worthy of the label of "science." Any school of thought that would rather disregard an accepted scientific law than challenge its own theory (which requires a great amount of faith, I might add) cannot possibly be called "science."

There has been no Evolution observed. Evolution has not been experimented with. Evolution has not been proven to have taken place in the past. Evolution contradicts at least one proven natural law. There is, therefore, nothing scientific about Evolution. It is pure philosophy, and is commonly accepted simply because it provides a (deeply flawed) alternative to the possibility that there might be something out there that's greater than us.

God forbid that there should actually be a God.

COMMENT POLICY

Please refrain from the use of foul language. Any failure to comply will result in comment deletion.

69 Comments:

At Fri May 27, 03:16:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Again, this post has so many mistakes and straw men in it one doesn't know where to begin. But I'll comment on two points.

First, the 2nd Law does not describe how the spatial order in a system will increase over time. All it states is that the entropy will necessarily increase towards a maximum. After the big bang galaxies and stars form by gravitational clumping. One can show that indeed, gravitational clumping increases entropy. In this process things get more clumped in position space, which decreases entropy. However, they get hotter and a lot less clumped in velocity space - which increases entropy. This second effect wins, so overall, entropy goes up (since in classical statistical mechanics entropy is proportional to the logarithm of phase space).

The argument about genetic information not increasing has always struck me as an obviously wrong argument. Anytime you have the
three process of gene duplication, point mutations, and selection working you can create new, unique information in a signel. Genetic algorithms are a good example of utilizing this to create new information.

 
At Fri May 27, 04:01:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yeah, Evolution is just totally ridiculous. Same goes for that round earth theory. Yeah, like what are the people in Austrailia doing - hanging on?

 
At Fri May 27, 04:19:00 PM, Blogger Clive Dangerously said...

Uh, Neo? A theory IS a hypothesis.

 
At Fri May 27, 04:42:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh..My...Gosh...

How could I have been so blind....
all this scientific terminology cloaking the theory of evolution has obscured my understanding of the speculations upon speculations of the transitional fossil records that MUST be somewhere based on the demonstrably inacurate carbon dating of bone fragments that must have come from specifically transisional species because otherwise we wouldn't be correct in our much vaunted opsition as the apex of the developement from the slime pit.....

give me a break. Couch it in any terms you choose...
The best mankind has ever been able to do is uncover still more mystery.
The arrogance of academia is only exceeded by it's unwillingness to aknowledge that it is limited in it's scope by it's lack of vision.

 
At Fri May 27, 06:33:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

^
For someone who does not provide any substantive criticism or contribution to the discussion above I find it amusing that they feel they are qaulified to call out anyone as being arrogant. If you feel you can add anything to the discussion, please do, otherwise I hope you find another venue to call people names.

S

 
At Sat May 28, 08:36:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The substantive contribution I make is to point out the obvious fact that no matter how much money/time/effort is expended to analyze all the different ways that theoretical particles may or may not behave based on exceedingly vague and sketchy physical evidence, mankind still has the ultimate answer we had 1000 years ago about the nature of our existence;
"we think we know more now than we did, but we're still not sure."
It breaks down to a wall of belief in a Creator, or a belief in an unbelievably convoluted series of coincidental events, supported by the most unlikely combination of reaction upon reaction upon reaction, culminating in the existance of mankind.
The arrogance to which I refer is, to put it in simple terms, very much akin to what would be said of the clay which questioned the potter.
The potter and the clay is a fairly close representation. Try though it may, the clay can never truly fathom all aspects of the potter, and the created, strive though we may, will not be able to prove/disprove the existence of the Creator.
Pile the words any way you like. Cite all the experiments you like.
Still, all that can be said is things like "we're closer now than we ever have been to....."
The whole point of the original post was to point out the absurdity of mankind's "case" for large scale evolotion, so to speak; therefore, I submit that your contribution of yet more of the obfuscational, absurd, fluff-speak spouted by the supposed intelligentsia, was actually the unsubstantive contribution.

 
At Sat May 28, 09:43:00 AM, Blogger United We Lay said...

Neo -
I think any theory, especially if it conflicts with religious conviction, goes into debate for centuries, for example, many still debate the devine existance of Jesus bin Josef. If you don't mind me asking, where are you getting your information from? I would be interested in reading the research that led you to these conclusions. I am interested in any knowledge, whether it supports or conflicts with my beliefs. Also, you mentioned on my site http://unitedwelay.blogspot.com that my view on homeschooling was different (can't remember your exact words at the moment). Why do you think so?

For the rest of you, whether you agree or disagree with someone, attacking their position never helps your own. Engage in educated discussion. As human beings, we all have a lot o learn from each other. Let's try not to alienate people and try to bring them closer together.

 
At Sat May 28, 09:54:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The biggest problem with evolution is that its logical conclusion goes against everything that we do each day. Evolutionists try to take evolution to its logical conclusion, but that is impossible because of how God made man.

 
At Sat May 28, 10:40:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Personally, what you call arrogance I think is a virtue. I'm glad people are arrogant enough to think they can understand how nature works. It gives me great comfort that people are trying to find a virus for Avian Flu rather than accepting those who die from it do so by "The Will of God". I, and many others, have seen huge gains in the quality of our lives because someone thought they could undstand what had been mysterious. We need more people with this arrogance.
I can also live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I'd rather live with approximate beliefs and uncertainty than to have "ultimate answers" which might be (and seem to be) wrong.

S

 
At Sat May 28, 11:21:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

S,

Christianity doesn't tell us that we can't understand nature. It tells us that there is a rational God who created a rational universe that we can understand because we are rational. This is why science was started in the first place. Christians (or people with the Christian worldview) had faith that God existed and that the world was rational, and so they started science.

 
At Sun May 29, 09:12:00 AM, Blogger United We Lay said...

I hope I'm not offending anyone by asking for research or askig questions. Many Christians I have met won't engege in discussion with me because I am a Buddhis, but how else am I to learn? As Gabriel stated, science was created to prove the existance of God, not to disprove it. By the way, some evolutionists believe that one day in the Bible can refer to an infinite amount of time as the concept of time was created by man and not God. Who is to say that one "day" in Genesis is not a million years?

 
At Sun May 29, 02:45:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, Gabriel, many Christians do believe that we have reason and it was given to us by God to understand Nature. There are, however, a minority of Christians who back away from reason when someone applies it to questions they are uncomfortable questioning--like origins.
Creationists arguments usually proceed as follows:
1) The Bible provides a correct account of origins.
2) Scientific evidence supports the Bible's account.
3) Those who disagree with the Bible's account often do so out of ulterior motives (often since 2) is so obvious).
My experience debating YEC is that the discussion which started on the validity of 2) quickly proceeds to 3) where people start questioning other's motives. This is so because those debating the topic at hand don't have sufficient grounding in the science to have an intelligent debate on the merits of the topic at hand.
I provided the first comment to the original post and so far no one has stepped up to refute anything I wrote. Instead I got a comment from some guy saying that he has the answer, the science is obviously wrong, and those who disagree with him are arrogant. I find this an incredibly weak form of argumentation.

S

 
At Sun May 29, 04:12:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree with you totally on the 3) of your list. The problem with the argument is that bad motives do not necessarily mean bad arguments. The argument that it is wrong to believe any theory that a fallen man came up with is easily proven wrong. If we aren't to believe what fallen men believes (which is almost everything under the sun), what are we to believe?

Also, the argument that we shouldn't believe whatever fallen man comes up with refutes the argument that YEC is true because the great majority of the scientific evidence points to it. If the evidence that non-Christian scientists come up with is false, there is no reason why the evidence that Christian scientists come up with should be true. There is no fundamental difference between the way Christians and non-Christians do science; the only difference is in how they interpret what they come up with.

 
At Sun May 29, 05:34:00 PM, Blogger United We Lay said...

You hasven't stepped up to provide research behind anything you wrote, either. I think we're all at a standstill on this issue. No matter what an evolutionist tells you, you will say it's just a theory. No matter what you say, they will demand proof and you have none as you take this fact on faith. The important thing is that you're reading everything you can on both sides of the issue so that you can make an informed decision, and when people disagree with you, you have information to back you up. If you would like me to do some research for you, I would be more than happy to, though I think it would be much more satisfying for you if you look it up yourself. And remember, read information on BOTH sides of the issue before you decide what you believe. There are some arguments that say the creationists and evolutionists can both be right.

 
At Sun May 29, 10:43:00 PM, Blogger Clive Dangerously said...

How is you guys' belief in God any different than and envolutionist's belief in evolution? We as Christians haven't got much more proof in our idea than he does in his.

 
At Mon May 30, 09:01:00 AM, Blogger J C said...

An excellent dissertation. Good work.

And, Clive, theory and hypothesis aren't necessarily the same,ie, they have different purposes. One to suggest a possible truth, the other to provoke or promote discussion or argument; Theory is, 'probably'; hypothesis is, 'possibly'.

 
At Mon May 30, 09:12:00 AM, Blogger J C said...

A little P S- Food for thought; the evolutionary theory can never be proven just as the big bang theory can never be proven. We are just too limited in space and time to actually ever witness enough to prove anything. The only thing that can be proven as a true fact is Gods' Creation and an afterlife and that can only be done by us dying. Spooky, ain't it?

 
At Mon May 30, 10:15:00 AM, Blogger United We Lay said...

My question is, what scientific evidence supports the Bible's account? I'm not asking so that I can immediately disagree with you. Buddhists don't do that. I actually want to read the research you're talking about.

Jcadla- You are absolutely right, this is an argument on which we all need to agree to disagree. Evollutionists and creationists all believe they are correct, and as none of us were there, we all take out position on faith, whether it be in God or Science.

Finally, and I may be a little preachy here, we need to set aside out differences and work together on things we agree on. There are a lot of community service projects such as Habitat for Humanity that Chistians and non-Christians can work together on and still have a psitive impact on the world.

 
At Tue May 31, 10:41:00 AM, Blogger Toad734 said...

I will address this in due time, until then I will refer everyone to my post on a similar topic:

www.toadthoughts.blogspot.com

Let me say something real quick; you guys are talking about circumstantial and incomplete evidence and things just happening magically. What do you think creationism is?

If the big bang couldn't have just happened, then how did God just happen? When refuting the possibility of the big bang happening by chance, you are refuting the possibility of God just happening by chance and one day after millions of years decides to make an entire galaxy just to put us on one small undrinkable water covered planet.

And if people don't evolve by decent, then how do you explain, white people, black people, Eskimos and Asians? Did Noah have a black wife; was one of his sons an Eskimo, was one white?

Has anyone here even read the origin of species? Do you even know what it is all about? Or so you shun the scientific method all together and start with a conclusion and then fill in the blanks later?

I'll be back...

 
At Tue May 31, 05:11:00 PM, Blogger Toad734 said...

So are you trying to prove that your hypothesis is right only by trying to point out flaws in other theories?

I don't want to hear about how you think it is impossible that humans and apes share the same ancestors, or that it's just a coincidence that I was born with 3 wisdom teeth and not 4, or that us having a useless appendix, and humans being susceptible to hemorrhoids have nothing to do with us still evolving. I also do not want to hear how you think that fossil evidence from 100 million years ago showing no signs of modern humans proves we have been here since the earth was 6 days old.
I want to hear how you know for a fact that God created the entire universe 10k years ago. Give me one shred of evidence that I have not already discredited one smoking gun from your side. And I would also like to see the scientific journal in which you obtained this information. In other words, the Bible doesn't count as evidence as it was written after the fact, mostly by people who were illiterate.

Follow these links and comments to continue this debate, which I have already had with Neo, where I debunk all his hypothesis that he says proves the Earth was created by God 10k years ago.



http://toadthoughts.blogspot.com/2005/05/we-need-law-making-them-teach.html

http://toadthoughts.blogspot.com/2005/05/new-species.html

http://toadthoughts.blogspot.com/2005/03/new-indonesian-earthquake.html

 
At Tue May 31, 11:05:00 PM, Blogger J C said...

Toad, I hope I haven't led you to believe I don't think there was a big bang.I think there was, probably much as science theorizes. That, however, has no bearing on my beiief in God as the Creator. Someone had to cause the big bang and then make something out of it.

All evidence on evolution and creationism is somewhat circumstantial. At least, as far as we personally are concerned, it is. The only thing that offers evidence for sure is the written records by different people of Jesus performing miracles.

 
At Wed Jun 01, 09:33:00 AM, Blogger David S. MacMillan III said...

If the big bang couldn't have just happened, then how did God just happen? When refuting the possibility of the big bang happening by chance, you are refuting the possibility of God just happening by chance and one day after millions of years decides to make an entire galaxy just to put us on one small undrinkable water covered planet.

So you're saying that the big bang and evolutionary processes are impossible naturally and require a supernatural explanation? God is the concept of a supernatural being that supercedes natural processes. If natural processes cannot explain a phenomenon (present or past), we see that as evidence for the supernatural.

And if people don't evolve by decent, then how do you explain, white people, black people, Eskimos and Asians? Did Noah have a black wife; was one of his sons an Eskimo, was one white?

That's easy: Variation in the genetic code. Noah was probably light brown with all the genes for all skin shades. No one has different color skin, it is all the same color (the pigment melanin) but different shades.

Has anyone here even read the origin of species? Do you even know what it is all about? Or so you shun the scientific method all together and start with a conclusion and then fill in the blanks later?

FYI, the full title of that book is "On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the
Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life". Sounds kinda racist to me.

Darwin was a man who had little or no knowledge of genetics and bioengineering. He thought that the genetic code was limitless, which would allow for infinite variation, turning canaries into eagles and monkeys into man. We know today that the genetic code is huge but definitely limited. Dogs will change, but they will still be dogs. "And every living thing produced after its kind."

 
At Wed Jun 01, 09:35:00 AM, Blogger Toad734 said...

A response to Neos post on my blog:

Why do you keep saying Evolution isn't a science? Is that what they taught you in home school, because in a real school you would learn about the scientific method and know that the scientific method applies to evolution, not creationism. Here is why:
Scientific Method:
1. Observe some aspect of the universe.
2. Invent a tentative description, called a hypothesis that is consistent with what you have observed.
3. Use the hypothesis to make predictions.
4. Test those predictions by experiments or further observations and modify the hypothesis in the light of your results.
5. Repeat steps 3 and 4 until there are no discrepancies between theory and experiment and/or observation.

If you can apply the scientific method to it, it is science.

Darwin observed that the finches in each of the Galapagos Islands were different. He formed a hypothesis of why that may be; he measured and observed these differences.
We can look at fossil records and measure the distances between skull sizes, brain cavities, eye socket sizes, know what they ate, know where and how they lived, and see the difference between them and modern humans.

Another point to refute your "evolution is not a science theory" from Scientific America.


1. Evolution is only a theory. It is not a fact or a scientific law.

No, many people learned in elementary school that a theory falls in the middle of a hierarchy of certainty--above a mere hypothesis but below a law. Scientists do not use the terms that way, however. According to the National Academy of Sciences (NAS), a scientific theory is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses."
No amount of validation changes a theory into a law, which is a descriptive generalization about nature. So when scientists talk about the theory of evolution--or the atomic theory or the theory of relativity, for that matter--they are not expressing reservations about its truth.

In addition to the theory of evolution, meaning the idea of descent with modification, one may also speak of evolution. The NAS defines a fact as "an observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and for all practical purposes is accepted as 'true.'" The fossil record and abundant other evidence testify that organisms have evolved through time. Although no one observed those
Transformations, the indirect evidence is clear, unambiguous and compelling.

All sciences frequently rely on indirect evidence. Physicists cannot see subatomic particles directly, for instance, so they verify their existence by watching for telltale tracks that the particles leave in cloud chambers. The absence of direct observation does not make physicists' conclusions less certain.



You cannot apply the scientific method to creationism because you cant even get to the fist step, creationism starts with the third step and ends there.

 
At Wed Jun 01, 09:45:00 AM, Blogger Toad734 said...

RE: Jcalda

That is fine, evolution and the big bang doesn't prove that there isn't a God. My girlfriend believes in God and also knows there is too much evidence pointing towards evolution that it cannot be ignored and the fact that there was no one around to document Gods creation, it is all just hearsay.

All that admitting to evolution does is prove that the Bible isn't entirely accurate, which is a big blow to fundamentalist whackos, but not a surprise to the majority of the population. After all we know that a big flood didn’t cover the entire planet, we know that there are rational explanations to the plagues in Egypt, we know that the Bible says you can stone your children if they don't obey you, we know that the Bible says not to shave your beards and that you should eat kosher and that you cant have sex with your wife on her period but we also know it later contradicts itself.

Plus, most Christians believe that the New Testament is really the only part of the Bible from which you should base your life so the stuff in the Old Testament, such as the flood and the creation should be taken with as much validity as the laws given in Leviticus about how one should live, which includes the above mentioned not shaving, eating kosher, stoning your children, eye for an eye, etc.

 
At Wed Jun 01, 09:53:00 AM, Blogger Toad734 said...

RE: David

Evolution is the concept that supersedes natural processes. If natural processes cannot explain a phenomenon (present or past), we see that as evidence for evolution.

See it doesn't make much sense when you turn in around does it. Now you know how we feel when you try to use the "God is above the natural world" crap. If one thing could be above and beyond the natural world then other things could be as well. If natural laws don't apply, then you can's say that there is only one supernatural being, because the supernatural is what it implies, above nature.


"To explain the origin of the DNA/protein machine by invoking a supernatural Designer is to explain precisely nothing, for it leaves unexplained the origin of the Designer. You have to say something like 'God was always there', and if you allow yourself that kind of lazy way out, you might as well just say 'DNA was always there', or "Life was always there', and be done with it." --Richard Dawkins,

 
At Wed Jun 01, 12:02:00 PM, Blogger Clive Dangerously said...

FYI, David: the theory is that we are descended from apes, not monkeys. Hence the lack of a tail.

 
At Thu Jun 02, 10:02:00 AM, Blogger Toad734 said...

Clive:

Actually the theory is that us and apes share the same ancestors and those ancestors may have had a tail at one time which would explain our coccyx, which just tails off and serves little purpose.

 
At Thu Jun 02, 10:29:00 AM, Blogger United We Lay said...

From my blog:

Here is some information on the background of the evolution debate. I believe in evolution, though I don't rule out the possibility that some higher power may have put the whole thing in motion. How is one to know for sure? The more important question is, do we have enough scientific evidence, and I believe we do, to illustrate the changes in all living things over the last billion years or so?

I am currently reading Unshakable Foundations, Contemporary Answers to the Crucial Questions About the Christian Faith by Norman Geisler and Peter Bocchino. From what I understand after reading the chapter on Macroevolution, there are several sides to this debate.

Macroevolution
1. Naturalistic - No intelligence (or god) is needed to bring about life forms and the process for new life forms.
2. Theistic - Requires intelligence (or god) to bring about life forms and the process for new life forms. (this and the Young Model are basically the same).
3. Gradualism - Small, slow transitions (changes in cell structure, intelligence, etc.) over millions of years.
4. Punctuated Equilibria - Larger, faster transitions over shorter time (Using the Jewish calander).

Intelligent Design (Creationism)
1. Young Model - Six successive creation days of 24 hours
2. Progressive Model - Creation in stages over extended time intervals (this and Gradualism are basically the same theory).

 
At Thu Jun 02, 12:08:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

David wrote:
FYI, the full title of that book is "On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the
Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life". Sounds kinda racist to me.


This is absolutely gold. Have you read the "Origin of Species"? If you had, then you would have known Darwin uses the words races and varieties interchangably for species. You would have also have known that Darwin doesn't discuss human evolution in "Origin of Species". This is something called pulling a quote out of its context.

Maybe you shouldn't go around quoting creationists literature and perhaps read some primary sources. It will make you look a lot smarter.

S

 
At Thu Jun 02, 02:58:00 PM, Blogger David S. MacMillan III said...

"To explain the origin of the DNA/protein machine by invoking a supernatural Designer is to explain precisely nothing, for it leaves unexplained the origin of the Designer. You have to say something like 'God was always there', and if you allow yourself that kind of lazy way out, you might as well just say 'DNA was always there', or "Life was always there', and be done with it." --Richard Dawkins

Do you know how many times I've heard that quote?

So is Dawkins saying that DNA is supernatural or something?

Besides, you aren't saying that evolution is supernatural. We are saying the God is supernatural. More on that later.

This is absolutely gold. Have you read the "Origin of Species"? If you had, then you would have known Darwin uses the words races and varieties interchangably for species. You would have also have known that Darwin doesn't discuss human evolution in "Origin of Species". This is something called pulling a quote out of its context.

I know that the Origin of Species is not about human evolution; Darwin covers that in The Descent of Man. I'm just pointing out that many people who associated that title with The Descent of Man would use that as a basis for racism.

The Root of this Argument

I like something that toady said earlier; he said something about how we are arguing about superficials and not the root of the matter (or something like that). Here is the root question:

Does/has some intelligent being not bound by the laws of nature (this means that it wouldn't need a beginning) exist/ever existed?

We see the world around us and conclude that in order for it to exist like it does today, it must have had supernatural help. Therefore, we see this as evidence for a supernatural being.

Those that don't want to accede the existence of a supernatural being come up with alternate explanations (i.e., evolution) for the world around us.

The only way, then, that we can substantiate the existence of a creator is to destroy those alternate explanations.

And that, my friends, is the root of this debate. Let's not get carried away accusing other people about their motives or attacking Dawkins or the Bible. Let's focus on the root of the matter:

We show you creation as an evidence for God.

You say that it all happened through random chance processes; i.e. evolution.

The burden of proof now rests on us. It is now our responsibility to show that evolution is not, was not, and cannot be, a natural process.

There are several ways in which we could probably do this, but for right now let's shift the burden of proof to you. Since there are many different versions of evolution, why don't you explain exactly how we got from, say, a Velociraptor to a mockingbird?

 
At Thu Jun 02, 03:01:00 PM, Blogger David S. MacMillan III said...

Actually the theory is that us and apes share the same ancestors and those ancestors may have had a tail at one time which would explain our coccyx, which just tails off and serves little purpose.

Actually, the coccyx does serve a purpose. It not only provides support for the spine in our upright walking condition, but it also makes human birth a lot easier.

 
At Thu Jun 02, 03:10:00 PM, Blogger David S. MacMillan III said...

After all we know that a big flood didn’t cover the entire planet,

We do? Evidence for a worldwide flood would be: Billions of dead things, buried in rock layers, laid down by water, all over the earth. What do we find? Billions of dead things (fossils), laid down by water (layers), all over the earth.

we know that there are rational explanations to the plagues in Egypt,

Actually those plagues cannot be explained naturally. The type of algae that that woman talks about only occurs in arctic regions and when it is placed in tropical water it turns green. It also is not harmful to fish; it could never bloom in the Nile because fish EAT IT WHEN IT BLOOMS!

we know that the Bible says you can stone your children if they don't obey you,

True, the penalty for open and absolute rebellion against the judical system was death,

we know that the Bible says not to shave your beards

It says not to participate in idol worship. The way that people trimmed their beards in those days was a form of allegiance to idols.

and that you should eat kosher

If you eat pork that has not been frozen for 24 hours, it can carry the deadly trichinea worm.

and that you can't have sex with your wife on her period

Modern medical science tells us that intercourse during a woman's period has the propensity to cause infections.

but we also know it later contradicts itself.

Where does the Bible contradict itself plainly? Give me two verses in context that "contradict" each other.

 
At Thu Jun 02, 05:48:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...


Toad734 said...
Clive:

Actually the theory is that us and apes share the same ancestors and those ancestors may have had a tail at one time which would explain our coccyx, which just tails off and serves little purpose.


Toad:
Do you remember anything from biology?? Along with the functions that David mentioned, that bone supports the muscles that keep you from filling your pants when you need to use the bathroom! I would say it serves at least some rudimentary purpose!

 
At Fri Jun 03, 01:29:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

One large hydrodynamic sorting of dead animals and the gradual deposition of dead animals lead to different predictions. The latter has been affirmed while the former is long discredited. This isn't evidence for the biblical interpretation.

Though I'm still waiting for someone to challenge my original post criticizing the blog author's poor understanding of thermodynamics and information theory.

S

 
At Fri Jun 03, 09:41:00 AM, Blogger David S. MacMillan III said...

The argument about genetic information not increasing has always struck me as an obviously wrong argument. Anytime you have the three process of gene duplication, point mutations, and selection working you can create new, unique information in a signel. Genetic algorithms are a good example of utilizing this to create new information.

I understand basic genetics, but unfortunately I have little knowledge of the terms you are using. Could you explain, in layman's terms:

"How can a beneficial increase in coded information in the genome happen through random chance processes?"

By the way, folks, there is an interesting parallel between DNA and HTML. In both cases, a code reading system (a living cell, Internet Explorer) must already be in place to translate the code. In both cases, there is a lot of "superflous" information that doesn't seem to openly change anything (so-called "junk" DNA, style sheeting/tags) but really is incredibly useful. In both cases, there is no intelligence required to create it. We know that the entire Blogger system is just a result of random chance. An electric fan fell on a keyboard and started typing away. This went on for a long, long, time. After millions and millions of hours, it finally bypassed the security system and created a website. The better the website was, the more hits it got, the more money the site made, the more they could pay for the electric bill, and therefore the better the site was the faster the fan typed. Of course I don't know this, but it's better to believe in an electric fan that created Blogger than to believe in an intelligent website designer that would have the ability to punish me for putting unsavory information on my blog. Besides, you can't prove that it didn't happen this way. You say that you have the testimony of the creators? Ah, that's just legend. You can't explain the website "naturally", so you have to come up with some explanation using intelligent design. You have the written testimony of the people that made it? That is just a antiquated collection of junky manuscripts. You can't trust the eyewitnesses!

You still don't believe me? I'll prove it. If there really was an intelligent designer, they wouldn't allow people to just make junk blogs that don't work. Everything would be streamlined; they would intervene whenever someone messed up something on their blog and make it perfect.

See what I mean? You can't say that there really is an intelligence behind Blogger.

 
At Fri Jun 03, 11:38:00 AM, Blogger David S. MacMillan III said...

In addition to the theory of evolution, meaning the idea of descent with modification, one may also speak of evolution. The NAS defines a fact as "an observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and for all practical purposes is accepted as 'true.'" The fossil record and abundant other evidence testify that organisms have evolved through time. Although no one observed those transformations, the indirect evidence is clear, unambiguous and compelling.
All sciences frequently rely on indirect evidence. Physicists cannot see subatomic particles directly, for instance, so they verify their existence by watching for telltale tracks that the particles leave in cloud chambers. The absence of direct observation does not make physicists' conclusions less certain.


There is a huge difference between subatomic particles and the "process" of evolution. Evolution supposedly happened in the past. Therefore, it is neither testable, repeatable, nor proveable. Science can only tell us about natural processes that are currently occuring. The best that "science" could do for evolution would be to demonstrate that evolution is a natural process that is currently occuring. Then, we could possibly make the assumption that it happened in the past. Sadly for the atheistic tribe, though, science does just the opposite. Science tells us that evolution is not a natural process and is, in fact, IMPOSSIBLE!

 
At Fri Jun 03, 11:43:00 AM, Blogger David S. MacMillan III said...

Science tells us that evolution is not a natural process and is, in fact, IMPOSSIBLE!

Post-Script to my last post: Since science tells us that the natural process of evolution is impossible, we must either invoke supernatural control/direction of biological change over time (like progressive creationists), we must abandon macroevolution as a viable means of creating modern organisms and come up with an alternate explanation (i.e. "It's just all an allusion from my own mind; my mind has always existed and there is no other real thing"), or we must admit the existence of a supernatural creator to make the world like we see it today.

 
At Fri Jun 03, 11:54:00 AM, Blogger David S. MacMillan III said...

I want to hear how you know for a fact that God created the entire universe 10k years ago.

Several careful studies have shown that the evidence found indicates a universe less than 10K years old. Earlier, I showed you why we believe that there is a God: There is no purely naturalistic explanation for many natural phenomena (like you and me).

In other words, the Bible doesn't count as evidence as it was written after the fact, mostly by people who were illiterate.

That, toady, is a self-contradiction. How can illiterate people write? :-o>=
On top of that, how can 40 different "illiterate" people write a book over a span of 4,000 years that has a central theme and never contradicts itself?

I freely admit that we Christians accept the Bible on faith. But you use faith just the same! You have faith that your car will start! You have faith that the US government will stand behind the contract between you and your employer. But those faiths aren't blind faiths. They are supported by evidence, esp. this: "It always happens this way!" Ours is not a blind faith either. All the current scientific evidence that I have seen is in agreement with Biblical records, so we accept the Scriptures on strong faith. It takes a heckofalot more faith to accept a "scientific" theory called evolution which has never been observed and has been thoroughly disproven than it does to accept the Bible when all the evidence points to it.

Saying "The bible doesn't count; you can't use it in an argument" is like me telling you that you have to prove to me that the outside world exists before I will listen to you.

Still, I understand your position. I agree not to use the Bible as proof (since you obviously won't accept it), but I will use it as a basis for interpreting the evidence in the world I see today.

 
At Fri Jun 03, 01:37:00 PM, Blogger Toad734 said...

Ever hear of scribes?

Did you just say the bible never contradicts itself?? Are you serious?

Do you really want to get into this debate?

I could start with Leviticus saying how it is an abomination for a man to lie with another man, although it also says you aren't allowed to shave or eat pork in the same chapter but then later it talks about how Jonathan and David were lovers.

2 Samuel 1:26: I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathon: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.

1 Samuel 18:3: Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul.
18:4: And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle.

There are also plenty of books written that never contradict themselves. Is The Firm also divinely inspired?

 
At Fri Jun 03, 01:40:00 PM, Blogger Toad734 said...

By the way David, several more, and more credible studies have been done to prove that the earth is billions of years old.

I could probably find you a study suggesting carrots are blue if I applied myself.

 
At Fri Jun 03, 02:16:00 PM, Blogger David S. MacMillan III said...

I could start with Leviticus saying how it is an abomination for a man to lie with another man, although it also says you aren't allowed to shave or eat pork in the same chapter but then later it talks about how Jonathan and David were lovers.

2 Samuel 1:26: I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathon: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.


Joe's post was absolutely right. Ever heard the term "brotherly love"? It doesn't mean sodomy. Period. Are you concerned about where it says "passing the love of women"? The Bible tells us "There is a friend who is closer than a brother", meaning Christ Jesus.

Google defines "love" as: a strong positive emotion of regard and affection. None of the examples they give refer to physical intercourse.

So since Jonathan was a better friend than any man or woman David had ever met, and the Bible says that sodomy is an abomination, suddenly that is a contradiction? Give me a break!

There are also plenty of books written that never contradict themselves. Is The Firm also divinely inspired?

Was The Firm written by forty different people over 4,000 years that only rarely had direct contact with each other? I don't think so.

But again, I'm not using the Bible as proof in this discussion since you don't accept it. How about addressing all the other questions I put forth?

 
At Fri Jun 03, 02:31:00 PM, Blogger David S. MacMillan III said...

By the way David, several more, and more credible studies have been done to prove that the earth is billions of years old.

I would do all the research myself, but unfortunately I am pretty busy. So, I'm just going to point you to this article by AiG. These are just 12 out of many evidences for a young earth. Note that I say "evidences" and not "proofs". These are fallible interpretations of the data. If you want more, here's another article with 10 evidences for a young earth/universe. Most of these match with the first set since they come from different sources.

Now, I'm not asking for a point-by-point rebuttal of each and every thing here. This is just a few evidences to show that some credible studies do disagree with millions of years.

You said that there were many studies done that "proved" the earth to be billions of years old. I can't guarantee that I'll have the time to refute it, but would you mind listing just one of these proofs?

List another "contradiction" in the Bible while you're at it. Smashing the last one was soooooo much fun!

 
At Fri Jun 03, 02:33:00 PM, Blogger David S. MacMillan III said...

Also, toady, in reference to your post about David and Jonathan:

The word "friendship" only occurs twice in the King James Version. Each time, it refers to a business contract! Language has changed since 1611, but God's Word still means the same thing, regardless of how you interpret it according to today's perverted culture.

 
At Sat Jun 04, 06:17:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

On top of that, how can 40 different "illiterate" people write a book over a span of 4,000 years that has a central theme and never contradicts itself?

--The Bible did not just fall into our lap. A group of people decided which books were to incorporate the Bible. They ensured that gospels and tracts that did not conform to what they believed (the Gnostic Gospels) were left out of the Bible. In other words, it's quite easy to bring together a compilation of tracts and verses that have relatively few contradictions when you control the process of creating the compliation itself.

 
At Sat Jun 04, 06:23:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I find it amusing that now Neo is attacking the Big Bang Theory and the age of the Universe, not just evolution.

I'll grant that the theory of Evolution has some big holes in it, but Creationism and ID are just as bad. If Evolution depends on anecdotes, check out ID, whose backbone is the "Watchmaker" anecdote.

However, don't just blow off the Big Bang and the age of the universe. There are way fewer holes in these theories. If you want a pretty good description on how scientists have dated our universe, please go to sciam.com.

A few careful studies for a universe only 10K old? Please. That's nothing compared to the studies verifying that our universe is in the billions of years of age.

Also, even George W. Bush understands these latter two theories as he has pushed for space telescopes to explore the universe, including the study of background microwave radiation.

 
At Sat Jun 04, 06:33:00 PM, Blogger David S. MacMillan III said...

The Bible did not just fall into our lap. A group of people decided which books were to incorporate the Bible.

I know, I know. I was just a little put out by toady's allegations that it was a collection of worthless junk written by illiterate and uneducated men.

 
At Sat Jun 04, 06:55:00 PM, Blogger David S. MacMillan III said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At Sat Jun 04, 07:00:00 PM, Blogger David S. MacMillan III said...

I'll grant that the theory of Evolution has some big holes in it,

Amen!

but Creationism and ID are just as bad.

How? Show me a "hole" in the theory that: an intelligent supernatural being, greater than the laws of nature, and similar or the same as that spoken of in Genesis created the universe and the laws that govern it in the same basic shape that we see it today approximately 6,000 years ago.

However, don't just blow off the Big Bang and the age of the universe. There are way fewer holes in these theories.

I'll admit that the uniformitarian model of the universe does not violate any laws of nature like macroevolution does. Unfortunately, we have found several phenomena (or lack thereof) like this that would make us question the validity of the Big Bang.

If you want a pretty good description on how scientists have dated our universe, please go to ScientificAmerican.com.

I tried this, but I could find only a few articles, and those were pay-per-view.

A few careful studies for a universe only 10K old? Please. That's nothing compared to the studies verifying that our universe is in the billions of years of age.

As in. . . .

Also, even George W. Bush understands these latter two theories as he has pushed for space telescopes to explore the universe, including the study of background microwave radiation.

Dubya, for all his excellent stances on moral issues, is not the ultimatum for the evangelical Christian. We already know that he is wrong about Islam, so it's no surprise that he might compromise the Genesis account.

-------------------

As far as the Big Bang is concerned, I have to say that I'm no cosmology expert. Men like Dr. Russell Humphreys and others like Dr. J. Lisle disagree with the Big Bang theory, and I agree with them because:

1. I believe that to try and fit millions of years into the Biblical account is to compromise the authority of scripture;

2. The evidence I have seen points to a young universe rather than an old one.

In Him,

David

 
At Sat Jun 04, 10:43:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Unfortunately, we have found several phenomena (or lack thereof) like this that would make us question the validity of the Big Bang.

The anti-matter-matter asymmetry in the universe doens't question the Big Bang. It questions the Standard Model of Particle Physics which no high energy physicist believes is the final word on fundamental particle interactions. The Big Bang is an amazing observational success. Why does the Big Bang predict power fluctuations in the temperature fluctuations in the cosmic back ground radiation? And the polarization signal with its spectrum? And the baryon density as deduced from light-element abundances agreeing with that deduced from the CMB? And the transition from acceleration to deceleration in the Hubble diagram of high-redshift supernovae? And the relativistic time delay in supernova light curves? Are these just bizarre coincidences? Isn't kinda odd that Alpher-Gamow-Hermann predict a CMBR in hot big bang models and lo & behold someone observes one? Or maybe, just maybe, BB is probably the way the universe formed and the author of the AiG article doesn't know what he is talking about.

S

 
At Sat Jun 04, 11:39:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"How can a beneficial increase in coded information in the genome happen through random chance processes?"

Through gene duplication, point mutations, and selection. If a section of the genome codes for a protein that is benificial for the organism and more of that protein or enzyme has greater benefit for the organism than a duplication of the part of the genome that codes for this particular protein will lead to greater genetic information.
I suggest reading the work of Tom Schneider. He gives a precise definition of what the information content of the genome means and shows how it can increase.

S

 
At Sun Jun 05, 08:44:00 AM, Blogger David S. MacMillan III said...

The anti-matter-matter asymmetry in the universe doens't question the Big Bang. It questions the Standard Model of Particle Physics which no high energy physicist . . . fundamental particle interactions. . . .

This is called the fallacy of using big words. I'm sorry, but I suffer from sesquaphidaliaphobianism (that's the fear of big words, for those of you who took Puduwah's class [inside homeschool joke]).

This post is packed with big words. At best, you are just a really smart astrophysicist who knows a lot about this and has trouble lowering yourself to our level. At worst, you are trying to use big words that we don't understand just so that we believe that "it must be true if he uses big words like that".

The Big Bang is an amazing observational success.

Hold it! We never observed the Big Bang. It was devised to explain the origin of the universe using billions of years apart from a Creator.

I don't understand astrophysics as well as you do. That's why I'm going to refer you to another article by AiG. This one gives a more basic outline of newly-found problems with the Big Bang.

I understand that the Big Bang theory has made several "predictions" that give support for the idea when we find them to be true. This is perfectly fine; most theories are expected to make predictions.

Let me hasten to point out, though, that most of these predictions were made post de facto, or "after the fact". In other words, secular scientists saw a phenomena, compared it to the big bang, and realized that if they added a part to the big bang theory, it would "predict" the existence of the very phenomena that they saw. This interpretation inside the big bang system leads to the problems in the article I linked to above, when certain parts don't make sense in the overall BB scheme. When we abandon the BB, the things that were "predicted" by the BB suddenly make more sense in a young universe than they do in an old universe.

For example, scientists recently found special concentric "shells" of galaxies throughout the universe, roughly centered on earth. This is a problem, since we aren't supposed to be in any special place. So, the scientists "expanded their knowledge" of hypothetical velocity space in order to bolster up their theory. They decided that these shells were really complex illusions that resulted from "ripples" from the "shock waves" in the Big Bang. They stretched their understanding of how we see the cosmos in order to say that no matter where you are in the universe, it should "look that way" to you. Then they lauded it as a "prediction" that was part of the Big Bang theory.

The problem with this is that if you abandon the entire complex Big Bang system, it makes a ton of sense that God would create the universe centered around earth (part of Dr. Russell Humphrey's young-universe model). This explains the "shells" much better than a hyperspace illusory ripple-bang mechanism.

 
At Sun Jun 05, 08:47:00 AM, Blogger David S. MacMillan III said...

Through gene duplication, point mutations, and selection. If a section of the genome codes for a protein that is benificial for the organism and more of that protein or enzyme has greater benefit for the organism than a duplication of the part of the genome that codes for this particular protein will lead to greater genetic information.

Again, I have trouble understanding this. Please explain in layman's terms. I would also appreciate it if you would give an example of one of these "beneficial mutations" that not only increases the species' chances for survival but leads the species down the road to greater development.

I suggest reading the work of Tom Schneider. He gives a precise definition of what the information content of the genome means and shows how it can increase.

I looked up Tom Schneider on Google, but I couldn't find any articles.

 
At Sun Jun 05, 01:04:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

If you think I use too much jargon in my posts then I believe you haven't really studied what physicists really think about cosmology. Most of my posts use jargon common to the field and I don't feel like writing a ten thousand word post to point out where you went wrong.

But on to your post on cosmology. Most, if not all, of
the Wieland AiG article's criticisms are dealt with by these two websites:
Ned Wright's Cosmology Tutorial
Evidence for the Big Bang
Ned Wright's website is particularly good for explaining what practicing cosmologists think about the Big Bang theory and its detracters.

Some BB predictions are post facto and some are not. The prediction of the CBMR is not. The abundances of Helium and Hydrogen were a postdiction but the abundances of the other elements were predictions since they had not been adequetely measured. But in the end I think whether something was a pre or post prediction is something of a red herring. If a theory matches the available data, and the match isn't trivial due to an abundance of adjustable parameters, then I think that theory is successfull. The BB has few adjustable parameters so I think it is a very remarkable theory.

S

 
At Sun Jun 05, 01:19:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

On increasing genetic information.... There is a whole lot on this but I don't really have the time or inclination to describe what it means in layman's terms. But here are some links which describe this problem:

Tom Schneider's Molecular Information: Introduces information theory and provides simulations showing how duplication, mutations, and selection increase information.
Technical article on genomic complexity and shows how it can increase.
Panda's Thumb: Long, technical article by a biologist giving observed instances of gene duplication leading to new genomic information.

S

 
At Sun Jun 05, 02:56:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

And when all is said and done, properly described in terminology far above the ken of mere laymen,
ther is no real evidence of transitional species, and no observation of transitions in progress.
If the standards of "proof" used to uphold the dogma of "spontaneous eruption of life" were applied in any other field, the proponents of same would never even be published.

 
At Sun Jun 05, 03:08:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

^
Transitional Vertebrate
Observed Instances of Speciation
Having studied biology deeply enough to be able to comment on its intellectual shallowness I trust you'll be able to tell me where exactly these articles go wrong.

S

 
At Sun Jun 05, 06:35:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The references linked make the same tired attempt at manipulation of data to support flawed hypothesis. A fish is still a fish, a cat is still a cat, ad infinitum. "Folk knowledge" or not, that doesn't change anything.
The people in the ivory towers are using all their resources to maintain their towers.

 
At Sun Jun 05, 07:14:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I see, very convincing. I think this is a good example of what is called "right wing postmodernism" which E.J. Dionne writes about as it relates to journalism:
Conservative academics have long attacked "postmodernist" philosophies for questioning whether "truth" exists at all and claiming that what we take as "truths" are merely "narratives" woven around some ideological predisposition. Today's conservative activists have become the new postmodernists. They shift attention away from the truth or falsity of specific facts and allegations -- and move the discussion to the motives of the journalists and media organizations putting them forward.
Here I ask the commenter to show me what is wrong with an article about speciation. Rather than provide substantitive criticism the commenter accuses the biologists of dishonesty. No evidence of this charge is given. The commenter then examines the motives of the biologists.
If this isn't a good example of what
Dionne calls right wing post-modernism I don't what is.

S

 
At Sun Jun 05, 09:14:00 PM, Blogger David S. MacMillan III said...

I read the article on Evidence for the Big Bang. It has very interesting and easy-to-understand information. One thing that they said was of paramount interest to me, and I quote:

". . . the BBT (Big Bang Theory) is not about the origin of the universe, but only about its development with time."

Basically, they explain that the BBT is really just an explanation of the way the universe operates. It basically states:

1. The universe is expanding; not the galaxies, but space itself.
2. The universe is cooling.

They stress that they don't know how the universe started; they just know what is happening to it now.

If this is true, than I am in 100% agreement with the BBT!!! According to the article, the BBT is a real scientific theory dealing with current natural phenomena rather than a pseudo-scientific theory that deals with the past.

I agree 100% that the universe is expanding. All the evidence we have: the "redshift" or "Doppler effect"; this is in agreement with the Bible: "He stretches out the heavens like a curtain." It also makes sense that the universe is cooling off; thermodynamics tells us that the energy available to do work must decrease, so the overall temperature must get lower. Creationists have no trouble with this part.

However, when an atheist gets ahold of the BBT (expansion and cooling), he assumes that, in the words of Carl Sagan, "The cosmos is all that ever was or ever will be." This leads them to extrapolate WAY too far back with the BBT, saying that if we go backwards, the universe gets smaller and hotter, eventually meaning that in the beginning there was a superrapid expansion from a tiny point. That's where it gets its name, THE BIG BANG. That's also where creationists disagree. Not only does this disagree with the scriptural account that gives a date of about 6,000 years, but the early stages of the universe according to "extrapolated Big Bang Theory", or just EBB, violate several laws of thermodynamics.

Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation. A fancy way of saying universal invisible light. This was predicted (albeit with some incorrect attributes concerning timescales) by Big Bang theorists; they said that the mechanism for the cosmos/BBT would produce tons of photons that would be stretched out into invisible light as time went on. They aren't exactly sure where this light came from, but it fits the BBT. Sure enough, we find CMBR.

But there's nothing wrong with this from a creationist standpoint. Heck, the FIRST THING God created was light! This should be obvious enough. No wonder there's tons of CMBR!

The explanation for why this light has gone from visible light to invisible light (requiring the passage of massive amounts of time) can be found at my blog here.

In a nutshell, creationists believe this about cosmology: "In the beginning (beginning of time, space, and natural laws, all created by God at this time), God created the heavens and the earth (the cosmos and the planetary system basically as we see it today)." Then, "HE stretches out the heavens like a curtain (this is the essence of the BBT after all)." We have no trouble with the BBT. We have trouble when people try to remove the existence of God from the equation and extrapolate the BBT back to the EBB, saying that there was a Big Bang billions of years ago, because this disagrees with the Bible and it disagrees with science (all the "Big Bang in Trouble" articles deal with the EBB, not the BBT. Everyone admits that the universe is expanding, and the parts of the CMBR that originate in the EBB often are what is attacked by these articles).

 
At Sun Jun 05, 09:19:00 PM, Blogger David S. MacMillan III said...

P.S., all the information in my last comment came entirely from me. None of it was copied from any other sources. See, it's easy to put stuff in "layman's" terms!

I'll reply to the biological part later.

In Him,

David

 
At Mon Jun 06, 01:08:00 PM, Blogger David S. MacMillan III said...

Most of the links you showed were either a bit too complicated and technical, or I looked but I couldn't find anything (like Tom Schneider's stuff).

Evolutionists seem to have trouble with understanding the difference between speciation, microevolution, and natural selection AND macroevolution.

Speciation is simply the loss of genetic information resulting in the loss of an ability to procreate within a single species. This separates the species into two distinct groups that are sexually separated. Those groups then are given the title of "different species".

Natural selection is the removal of certain genes from the collective "gene pool" of a society because genes that hurt survival chances are not passed on.

Microevolution is the loss or shadowing of certain genes during mitosis. This results in more pronounced physical features. The most famous example of this combined with natural selection is Darwin's finches:

There were originally finches with medium beaks. This was because their "beak" code said "BSBS" (B is larger beak and S is smaller beak). Every time the birds reproduced, "BSBS" and "BSBS" would combine to producte combinations like "BBBS" (bigger beak than parents) or "BSSS" (smaller beak). When the conditions were better for bigger beaks, most "BSSS" died out, removing most the the "S" genes from the gene pool. Then, "BBBS" and "BBBS" combined to make combinations like "BBSS" (Medium) or "BBBB" (Huge). Of course, the "BBBB" was best fit for survival, so the "BBSS" and the "BBBS" died out, leaving only "B" genes in the general population.

Wow! The beaks grew because we lost all the "S" genes!

Sadly, Darwin extrapolated this to say that this process could go on forever, giving finches bigger beaks, wings, and claws and turning them into eagles! However, this would require additional information, which is never added to the genome.

I don't want computer simulations that "demonstrate" evolution. All they do is "demonstrate" that the program works the way it was designed to, and nothing more.

Give me a real-life example of information being added to the genome.

 
At Mon Jun 06, 07:59:00 PM, Blogger David S. MacMillan III said...

One other thing about the "useless" coccyx. I asked my chiropractor about it, and he informed me that the spinal chord ends a few vertebrae above the hips, and it fans out into a "horsetail" of fibrous nerves. These nerves are most concentrated right behind the coccyx, then they fan out more into two distinct groups and travel down the legs. If you've seen drawings of the human nervous system, you will know what I mean.

The chiropractor told me that if the coccyx was not there, all our weight would land on those nerves whenever we sat down. OUCH! The coccyx protects that critical bundle of nerves, allowing you to sit in front of the computer right now.

 
At Mon Jun 06, 08:47:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Not only does this disagree with the scriptural account that gives a date of about 6,000 years, but the early stages of the universe according to "extrapolated Big Bang Theory", or just EBB, violate several laws of thermodynamics.

Not really. This objection is dealt with in the article.
I assume the argument you would make would be that the 2nd and 1st are violated by a BBT. The 2nd is violated because entropy should increase and you think entropy means disorder. This is false as I've written elsewhere--sometimes physical processes become more disordered in space as the entropy increases and sometimes they do not. You would probably say that the 1st is violated because the BB has the universe coming out of nothing. I suppose one could argue this but no cosmologists are really making the claim about where the universe came from. Mostly they describe just what happens after the initial singularity and are agnostic about the origins of the singularity.


There aren't exactly sure where this light came from, but it fits the BBT

It's no great mystery where it came from--from the initial fireball that existed after t=0. How the initial fireball came about is the question but the existence of the CMBR is from the simple fact that high energy particles tend to create a lot of high energy photons. After the universe expanded some the baryonic component of the universe was no longer in thermal equilibrium with the photon component. After this happened the photon component's temperature dropped as 1/(expansion of the universe rate).

I don't really care if you want to make analogies between Genesis and the BBT. To me it seems like it takes a lot of mental gymnastics to do this. I think a rational look at the evidence shows that it is a giant stretch to claim the Universe's age is only 6K years.

Speciation is simply the loss of genetic information resulting in the loss of an ability to procreate within a single species

This is certainly not a definition of speciation that I would accept, nor have I ever heard anyone define it as such. If you define speciation as a loss of genetic information then of course it will not increase.

Your finch example I see oppositely than you, if a species genome doesn't react to the environment then it essentially loses information if in the period of nonaction it loses fitness. As the PNAS article says:
" A true test for whether a sequence is information uses the success (fitness) of its bearer in its environment, which implies that a sequence's information content is conditional on the environment it is to be interpreted within (4)"
This is similiar to how languagues change--English has certainly lost a lot of words over the years but that doesn't mean our ability to express our ideas has diminished. Instead we have created new words and old words have changed meaning to suit the needs and customs of its speakers.

Give me a real-life example of information being added to the genome.

I did. You should read the Panda's Thumb blogpost again if you didn't in the first place.

S

 
At Tue Jun 07, 12:27:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

And now that there has been much additional detail added to the elaborate tapestry banners hanging gracefully from the ivory ramparts.........
The Panda is still a Panda, The bird is still a bird, the fish are still fish......et al.

 
At Sat Jun 11, 09:55:00 AM, Blogger United We Lay said...

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,67813,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_6

http://nationalacademies.org/evolution/

Evolution Resources
From the National Academies
This Web page is designed to provide easy access to books, position statements, and additional resources on evolution education and research. These materials have been produced by the National Academies and other sources. The site will be updated and expanded periodically.

Reports
Evolution in Hawaii: A Supplement to Teaching About Evolution and the Nature of Science (2004)
Evolution in Hawaii examines evolution and the nature of science by looking at a specific part of the world -- the Hawaiian Islands. By focusing on one set of islands, this book illuminates the general principles of evolutionary biology and how ongoing research will continue to expand our knowledge of the natural world. This practical book has been specifically designed to give teachers and their students an opportunity to gain a deeper understanding of evolution using exercises with real genetic data to explore and investigate speciation and the probable order in which speciation occurred based on the ages of each island. [read FREE online]

Science and Creationism: A View from the National Academy of Sciences, Second Edition (1999)
While the mechanisms of evolution are still under investigation, scientists universally accept that the cosmos, our planet, and life evolved and continue to evolve. Yet the teaching of evolution to schoolchildren is still a contentious issue. In Science and Creationism, the NAS states unequivocally that creationism has no place in any science curriculum at any level. Briefly and clearly, this booklet explores the nature of science, reviews the evidence for the origin of the universe and Earth, and explains the current scientific understanding of biological evolution. This edition includes new insights from astronomy and molecular biology. [read FREE online]

Teaching About Evolution and the Nature of Science (1998)
Written for teachers, parents, and community officials as well as scientists and educators, this book describes how evolution reveals both the great diversity and similarity among the Earth's organisms. It explores how scientists approach the question of evolution, and illustrates the nature of science as a way of knowing about the natural world. In addition, the book provides answers to frequently asked questions to help readers understand many of the issues and misconceptions about evolution. The book includes sample activities for teaching about evolution and the nature of science. [read FREE online]


National Science Education Standards (1996)
A landmark effort that involved thousands of teachers, scientists, science educators, and other experts across the country, these standards echo the principle that learning science is an inquiry-based process, that science in schools should reflect the intellectual traditions of contemporary science, and that all Americans have a role in improving science education. This document is invaluable to education policy-makers, school system administrators, teacher educators, individual teachers, and concerned parents.

The Search for Life's Origins: Progress and Future Directions in Planetary Biology and Chemical Evolution (1990)
The study of planetary biology and chemical evolution draws together experts in astronomy, paleobiology, biochemistry, and space science who work together to understand the evolution of living systems. This field has made exciting discoveries that shed light on how organic compounds came together to form self-replicating molecules -- the origin of life. This volume updates that progress and offers recommendations on research programs -- including an ambitious effort centered on Mars -- to advance the field over the next 10 to 15 years. [read FREE online]


Statements
Letter to NAS Members from President Bruce Alberts on Evolution Controversy in Our Schools (March 4, 2005)

Request to NAS and Institute of Medicine Members to Help Counter the Cobb County, Ga., School Board's Actions on the Teaching of Evolution in Public Schools (Sept. 18, 2002)

Statement of Support for the Kansas Board of Education's Decision to Adopt New Science Standards for K-12 Students (Feb. 14, 2001) from the presidents of NAS, American Association for the Advancement of Science, and National Science Teachers Association

Joint Statement from the National Research Council, American Association for the Advancement of Science, and the National Science Teachers Association Regarding the Kansas Science Education Standards (Sept. 23, 1999)

Statement by NAS President Bruce Alberts on Kansas State Science Curriculum (Aug. 20, 1999)

Research Papers on Evolution
The Future of Evolution (2002)
This collection of colloquium papers presented by experts in biology, evolution, genetics, environmental science, and more was originally published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. The volume looks at evolution not just as history, but as an active agent that will affect our future. [read FREE online] [read PDF FREE]


Variation and Evolution in Plants and Microorganisms: Toward a New Synthesis 50 Years After Stebbins (2000)
This collection of 17 papers marks the 50th anniversary of the publication of Stebbins' classic. Organized into five sections, the book covers: early evolution and the origin of cells, viral and bacterial models, protoctist models, population variation, and trends and patterns in plant evolution. [read FREE online]


Tempo and Mode in Evolution: Genetics and Paleontology 50 Years After Simpson (1995)
The volume examines early cellular evolution, explores changes in the tempo of evolution between the Precambrian and Phanerozoic periods, and reconstructs the Cambrian evolutionary burst. Long-neglected despite Darwin's interest in it, species extinction is discussed in detail. This book discusses the role of molecular clocks, the results of evolution in 12 populations of Escherichia coli propagated for 10,000 generations, a physical map of Drosophila chromosomes, and evidence for "hitchhiking" by mutations. [read FREE online]


Other Academies Articles
From the National Academies: Teaching the Science of Evolution in Cell Biology Education Volume 3, Summer 2004.


Selected Outside Resources
Statements from Scientific and Scholarly Organizations on the National Center for Science Education's Web site

National Association of Biology Teachers' Position Statement on Teaching Evolution

National Center for Science Education

National Science Teachers Association: Resources for Teaching Evolution

Public Broadcasting Service (PBS): Evolution: A Journey Into Where We're From and Where We're Going

PBS Online Course for Teachers; Teaching Evolution

University of California Museum of Paleontology: Understanding Evolution: A Website for Teachers

American Institute of Biological Sciences/National Center for Science Education Evolution List Server Network

 
At Sun Jun 12, 10:44:00 PM, Blogger mynym said...

"... science in schools should reflect the intellectual traditions of contemporary science..."

Too bad that under the guidance of the atheists of the NAS they are still teaching the frauds of a proto-Nazi that are over a hundred years old.

"The study of planetary biology and chemical evolution draws together experts in astronomy, paleobiology, biochemistry, and space science who work together to understand the evolution of living systems. This field has made exciting discoveries that shed light on how organic compounds came together to form self-replicating molecules -- the origin of life."

They've got to be kidding.

Empirical evidence:
The Privileged Planet

And Life..."So efficient is the mechanism of information storage and so elegant the mechanism of duplication of this remarkable molecule that it is hard to escape the feeling that the DNA molecule may be the one and only perfect solution to the twin problems of information storage and duplication for self-replicating automata."
(Evolution: A Theory in Crisis
By Michael Denton :337-338)

All it took was a muddle puddle. That is the common ancestor of all Life according to those who believe in the mythological narratives of Naturalism.

I'm still waiting for a mythological narrative for the copulatory system of the dragonflies because it would be amusing. Maybe someone here who reads what the half-wits at the Panda's Thumb write can try their hand at it.

I call them half-wits with sound reason. Notice how even the name of the blog is engaging in natural theology and a negative claim of knowledge about the Creator through the creation, even as they claim that science cannot touch theology.

 
At Sun Jun 12, 10:55:00 PM, Blogger mynym said...

To those who believe in Naturalism/Evolution, what is the scientific explanation what you think and write here?

Is your writing an artifact of design that can be recognized as the work of a mind or is it an artifact of your brain events. Given the overblown claims about natural selection, perhaps we could say that Nature "selected" all your brain events of which your text is an artifact.

Why should any mind of sentience read your sentences? Are your random brain events going to match "the truth" of things somehow and then cause some brain events in the other that will also match? How? Of the hundred billion neurons, your little words here that have no spirit/meaning (let alone the Spirit of the Word) nor true breath of life to them are going to cause such a chain reaction so that our brain events come to match "truth"?

I think that you may secretly assume that you can think through your brains in a way that your thoughts become flesh. I think you may assume that there is a spirit to your words that is of a likeness to the Spirit of the Word, even as you work to deny the Truth.

 
At Thu Jun 23, 10:00:00 PM, Blogger TheLoneAmigo said...

If we were creating by God, why aren't we perfect? It's pretty inconvenient to have to breathe, wouldn't you agree? Or to have to eat? Or to get sick?

 
At Thu Jul 14, 10:55:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have not enough time to read the whole stinkin' 69 (almost 70!! *evil laugh*) comments. So I'm just going to try to COMMENT on everything at once.

Neo, good point. A while back (years, months, weeks, eh...what's the difference??) I had to write an expository essay on that thing. My main point was that Evolution is not only a hypothesis, but since it is only a hypothesis, it shouldn't be promoted dogmatically (i.e: in SCHOOLS?!)

Think of it this way. Let's say you hear a little bang. You say,
"Ho, what was that?"
"Oh, just a little bang." I reply.
"Where did it come from?"
"Nowhere. It just happened."
Certainly you wouldn't be able to believe that! I mean, a little bang just 'happening'??

But you do that to yourselves!! A BIG BANG just happening?? *sigh* When will you ever learn...?

TOAD 734!! I am a Christian, and I study my Bible. If YOU can tell me exactly where in the Bible that you have to stone your children if they disobey, ETC, and your outrageous comment...I will look it up. Oh, and "Jonathan" isn't a book in the Bible...just so you know...

IMHO, Evolution has holes in it that are never going to be filled. If you really want to talk about dating, learn why Carbon-14 cannot date anything past (and get this) 50,000 years. The half-life would be more like 1/90 of a life...not even traceable.

In the Origin of Species (which is the basic name, I don't really feel like copying and pasting..) Darwin himself said: (and I quote)

If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numorous, successive, slight modifications, then my theory would absolutely break down.

That's from the book "The Origin of Species (et cetera)", written by Charles Darwin, page 164 in the 6th edition by New York Publishers.

I'll be back, to take your phrase, toady!

 

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