Thursday, November 24, 2005

A Logical Truth: Three Fallacies of Liberal Thought

Nine days ago, I posted a question for all my readers, in hopes of using their answers to illustrate a point. I received a total of twelve responses in among 47 comments, and Seanny will be glad to know that the point of my question was not to make an argument for gun ownership (I’ll leave that to Grizzly Mama...)

Here’s the breakdown of my responses:

  • I received 2 responses from individuals with a Liberal history, 9 responses from individuals with a Conservative history, and 1 response from someone with a more or less apathetic history.
  • Conservatives unanimously voted to take some sort of action against the criminal, either warning him before blowing his brains out, or shooting first and asking questions later.
  • The apathetic individual joined the Conservatives in favoring swift, and if necessary, lethal action.
  • The two Liberals, however, were divided. One Liberal (the younger and more moderate of the two) joined the Conservatives without hesitation, while our friend Toad concluded that swift, lethal action would be a very bad idea.

What do these (admittedly rudimentary) statistics reveal? Well, as Toad astutely observed, they do a fine job of illustrating “the difference between the liberal and conservative mind.” This difference lies at the heart of our respective worldviews, and helps determine all of our actions.

We can pin down the difference I speak of by examining the reasons behind the answers my question received. As Seanny McShawn noted, there was only one logical answer to my question; some action must be taken to save the woman and children. This was the reasoning behind the answers given by the Conservatives, Clive, and Swede. Toad’s response, however, revealed a very different kind of logic.

Toad’s response was first that there are too many possibilities for us to assume the most probable scenario, that a thug has killed a family man and is prepared to do the same to his family. This logic was followed by the claim that to help would simply be too dangerous, as it could be an elaborate trap. The final bit of justification that he offered is that any evil that could be done would have been done already. These are all fairly typical Liberal stances; they are not universal, but Liberal leadership has shown that these considerations come well before any consideration for the lives of the victims of the crime. I will illustrate this point later.

Allow me to clarify now that this post is not intended to be an attack on Toad. He was simply the most forthcoming with his answers, and provided the example that I needed. I’m glad he participated and provided us with honest answers.

Let us now deal with the three fallacies of Liberal Thought, which Toad provided us with in his argument:

(1) There are just too many possibilities... This is the First Fallacy of Liberal Thought. It is the idea that we simply can’t be certain of who’s the good guy and who’s the bad guy in a situation, or of anything else for that matter, so it’s best for us to just sit on our hands. Rather than believing what is obvious, this fallacy forces adherents of Liberalism to fear what might be more than they fear what is apparent.

It is unclear what causes this fallacy. Its roots could lie in Postmodernism, the idea that because of the random nature of the universe, Truth is unknowable in any situation. In other words, there are so many possibilities that it is impossible to know all the facts about a given situation, and therefore any swift action would be irresponsible. This philosophy is irrational, however, because it ignores all laws of probability, and would rather allow evil to happen than believe the logic that says evil will happen.

The First Fallacy of Liberal Thought may also be a simple cop-out; perhaps its adherents are too lazy, too cowardly, or too selfish to deal with any evil that does not directly affect them. I cannot say, because any one of these motivations (or Postmodernism) could lead someone to avoid engaging an apparent evil. No matter the motivation, however, there is no justification for the First Fallacy. Laziness, cowardice and narcissism could never justify it, and Postmodernism would be an irrational justification as well, so the idea that “there are just too many possibilities” can, in most cases, be laid to rest.


(2) It would just be too dangerous (or costly) to get involved... This is the Second Fallacy of Liberal Thought. It is the idea that, no matter how noble the cause, no good work should be done for another if it involves an element of risk. “Always look out for Number One” is another way of phrasing this philosophy, which places more value on the life of the would-be helper than that of the victim. It allows the potential savior to avoid risking his life to prevent the almost-certain death of another.

This fallacy can sometimes be combined with the First Fallacy, which produces an argument like the one Toad presented. Essentially, such an argument states that “We can’t know everything about this situation; there could be some danger we don’t know about yet, so it’s best not to get involved.” Either way, this fallacy has little basis in logic.

The Second Fallacy, like the First Fallacy, could be an excuse for laziness or cowardice. If taken at face value, however, such an argument is a blatant admission of narcissism, which is easily established as a fault. After all, what possible justification can one have for not taking a chance at death to save another from certain death? To fail to save a life on impulse is one thing, but it is quite another to live according to this Fallacy of Liberalism, having your mind made up that in most cases, risk of personal injury outweighs the value of another human life.


(3) Any evil that could be done would have been done already... This is the Third Fallacy of Liberal Thought, which is defeated by the First Fallacy. How is it possible that there are so many possibilities as to the cause of this evil, but only one possibility as to when any resulting evil will be committed? If we can’t immediately know everything about a situation, then how can we assume that no more harm will come from it?

The only possible cause for such an assumption to be made up-front is that it is convenient. Someone doesn’t want to get involved, so he convinces himself that it’s all over and he would only be risking his own skin if he stepped in. Obviously, this fallacy is rooted solely in narcissism (not to mention self-delusion), without a bit of logic.


These three fallacies are evident in much of Liberal philosophy, but show up most notably in cases involving foreign affairs. Consider the Rwandan Genocide, where Clinton, Blair, Chirac and Annan failed to do anything except save the white foreigners who were trapped in Rwanda at the time of the genocide. The UN, with its American and Western European military force, was perfectly capable of ending the genocide, being better armed and trained than the Interhamwe, who slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Tutsi Rwandans. However, the UN and all the Western powers neglected to do anything to stop the slaughter.

In their apathy towards the plight of the Rwandans, the Liberal-led Western powers succumbed to a sort of national narcissism, called ethnocentrism. Even though they were better armed and trained, as was the person in the scenario I posed nine days ago, they decided it would be too dangerous or too costly to protect the weak. They knew no one else could stop the genocide. They knew that if they didn’t help, the genocide would continue. They knew who the offending party was, and STILL, they didn’t step in. As the Clinton presidency and the rest of the UN allowed the First, Second, and possibly Third Fallacies of Liberal Thought to guide their foreign policy, more than 800,000 people were being senselessly killed.

The same could be said of the War in Iraq: There is a legitimate argument to be made against the War, but it is not an argument that Liberals will make (I will address it in a later post). Instead, most Liberals will refer to the war in terms of one or more of the Three Fallacies.

They may say the war is for oil, or that we had no way of knowing whether or not Saddam still had WMDs, which is to succumb to the First Fallacy, ignoring what is obvious in favor of a conspiracy theory.

They may also say the war is simply too costly in terms of lives or money, which requires belief in the Second Fallacy; in other words, they are saying that the victim group just isn’t worth risking our lives or money for. Ethnocentrism at its finest.

Finally, the Libs may say that Saddam had definitely disposed of his weapons and would not seek or use more, which is an example of the Third Fallacy. According to true Liberalism, however, we couldn’t know WHAT he would have done, and logically, his history of genocide does not in any way prove that he would not commit genocide again.

These are not the only examples of the Three Fallacies of Liberalism being put into action, but they are two of the more recognizable ones. They illustrate for us the mistakes that have been repeated throughout the history of modern Liberalism, from the ceding of Eastern Europe to the Soviet Union all the way to the Bay of Pigs fiasco. These mistakes even continue to be made, and what’s more, they are still defended by many Liberals in the United States and around the world.

It is time that both Conservatives and Liberals alike began to recognize these Three Fallacies of Liberal Thought. Any intellectually honest person will agree that they are fallacies. Any intellectually honest person will agree that they are based out of narcissism, which is the common bond running through all of them. Any intellectually honest person will conclude that a philosophy founded on narcissism can never be legitimate.

Therefore, could it be that Liberalism should be renamed? Is it really the philosophy of narcissism, the Philosophy of the Self? It seems that way. With three narcissistic fallacies to govern the interactions of all true adherents of this philosophy, there seems to be no other way to describe it. When the individuals who claim Liberalism as their own philosophy determine their actions based on what they can positively know (according to them, nothing), how much harm could possibly come to them (according to them, too much), and how much evil they could prevent for the future (according to them, none), there is no word to describe them, except narcissistic.

It’s time to start calling the Liberals on their lapses in logic. The Three Fallacies which have propped up Liberalism thus far need not go unchallenged, and should be attacked at every opportunity. Narcissism has never been a strong basis for a philosophy, and it is a horrible foundation for foreign policy; this has been proven by the modern Liberal movement time and again, and now is the time to call the Liberals on the shortcomings of their philosophy. If we want to end world hunger, genocide, oppression and poverty, we must not allow ourselves to fall into the trap of narcissism, whether we call it by its name or seek to conceal the ugly truth behind it in terms like “Liberalism.”

For after all does not a narcissist by any other name govern as poorly?

COMMENT POLICY

Please refrain from the use of foul language. Any failure to comply will result in comment deletion.

26 Comments:

At Thu Nov 24, 10:06:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I totally agree with you. I read the question that you sent out nine days earlier and my response would be: I would pull my gun and yell, "Drop the knife and back away from the family!" If the thug did not comply I would then fire a warning shot passed his head. Anyway being a conservative myself I find you debate very well put and I thouroughly agree with you...whoa...I sounded mature...usually I would just put, "I agree! YOU ROCK!" ...dude...

 
At Thu Nov 24, 10:42:00 PM, Blogger Clive Dangerously said...

If you don't mind me asking, which was I classified as?

 
At Thu Nov 24, 10:51:00 PM, Blogger jacob.thrasher said...

I listed you as being apathetic, because of your previous statements regarding politics.

 
At Thu Nov 24, 11:04:00 PM, Blogger Clive Dangerously said...

I'll need to look that word up.

 
At Fri Nov 25, 01:25:00 AM, Blogger Grizzly Mama said...

Interesting and I believe I saw Dr. Sanity make some comments like this about narcissism/leftism. Both of you have made a good point and I agree.

 
At Fri Nov 25, 08:28:00 AM, Blogger RobertDWood said...

So true!

That was an extreamly long post.

Swede:
We were attacked, and continually threatened. Thus, the situation is simlar.

 
At Fri Nov 25, 11:26:00 AM, Blogger Clive Dangerously said...

Let's not get Al-Qaeda confused with Sadaam's Iraq. NOT the same. If anything, we should have gone after Al-Qaeda in Saudi after Afghanistan, because that's where most of our attackers came from.

 
At Fri Nov 25, 02:24:00 PM, Blogger Grizzly Mama said...

Iraq supported terrorists and Iraq had violated resolutions for more than a decade. The justification for war in Iraq had been there atleast since 1998. Perhaps you're too young to remember. It was the Clinton administration.

So. You want to nuke Saudi Arabia then, Clive? I'm game. Let's go!

 
At Fri Nov 25, 09:01:00 PM, Blogger Sean said...

Firstly, I take objection to the implications that these “Three Fallacies of Liberal Thought” are universally true of Liberal behaviour. That, in itself, is a fallacy. Whether or not you mean it, the language you use implies that you believe all liberal-minded people think this way, and believe these things. For example, “With three narcissistic fallacies that govern the interactions of all true adherents to this philosophy, there seems to be no other way to describe it” implies that to be able to call oneself a Liberal, one must subscribe to all of the terms you’ve laid out in this post. It might be that only extreme liberals follow this, and even then, not all of them may have these views. Either way, it is both fallacious, and a gross generalization.

Secondly, your premise that “any intellectually honest person will agree that they are fallacies. Any intellectually honest person will agree that they are based out of narcissism, which is the common bond running through all of them. Any intellectually honest person will conclude that a philosophy founded on narcissism can never be legitimate” is a clear Association Fallacy. Most “intellectually honest” people will more than likely not agree on many things, including your trinity of fallacies, and therefore your claim is bunk. And that’s only the start. I suggest revising your argument.

So yeah, things aren’t that simple. While the liberal leader’s records aren’t that sparkling, neither are those of the right-wingers. That does not exonerate liberal leader’s faults in the past, but neither does it condemn the viewpoint as a whole. So perhaps it would be more appropriate to look at all levels and wings of government, not just those whose platforms you and your community disagree with. Unless of course you’re confident that you have a perfectly objective view of politics.

 
At Sat Nov 26, 10:49:00 AM, Blogger RobertDWood said...

"Palm Boy, we already established that the situations were slightly similar, but that metaphore is such an unfair advertisement for the war that it is almost propoganda. It's like those cigarette adds in magazines that show some girl climbing a mountain, and so they suggest that you can smoke and be healthy and athletic too."

Ah, but you can. If you notice all the athleates who smoke, and are still healthy and athletic?

BTW: Iraq used chemical weapons on the Kurds.

 
At Sun Nov 27, 12:41:00 AM, Blogger Grizzly Mama said...

One of my drill instructors in Basic Training smoked 3 packs of cigs a day. He was about 45 years old and could run 10 miles without breaking a sweat.

As for the models - is it possible that they may be doing other things that contribute to their early demise? Dietary problems? Drugs? Alcohol?

I don't advocate smoking. Don't get me wrong. I'm just arguing because I like to argue. Smoking is bad - it's true.

I'm the Grizzly Mama, Swede. Grrrrrrrrr. ;-)

 
At Sun Nov 27, 06:56:00 PM, Blogger IchobanaRose said...

i agree with hotaru. i "thoroughly agree" also.

 
At Sun Nov 27, 06:58:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree with hotaru, as well. Both that I thoroughly agree and that they sounded very mature. I don't know why that's scary to them, though.

 
At Mon Nov 28, 07:52:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Baaaaaa-aaaaaa-aaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

 
At Mon Nov 28, 03:10:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Here's a fallacy of Neo's thought: assuming that everyone in a particular group is bound to think and act the same way as each other.

This is the problem with "the system" today. It's all about lumping groups together. No one is an individual. You're either liberal or conservative; there is no in-between.

 
At Mon Nov 28, 04:02:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Blaaaa----aaack Maaaaa----aaamba....terror in type!???

 
At Mon Nov 28, 05:19:00 PM, Blogger jacob.thrasher said...

Oh me, oh my... Where to begin? How about with our Anonymous friend who took it upon himself to inform me that generalizing is bad?

Anonymous,

Imagine for a moment that I typed some phrase in my post like "[these ideas] are not universal." Would that make it better? 'Cause if you will remember, I wrote that early in the post.

Now please imagine for a moment that I, as a homeschooler and a Christian, actually understand the problems with generalizations and stereotypes. If that is the case, then it would logically follow that this post was written according to the idea that there are various degrees of liberalism, conservatism, or whatever philosophy you may wish to examine. Therefore, as Swede (now Black Mamba) pointed out, the three stances or fallacies that I listed would only become apparent in the more extreme cases of Liberalism.

If you were to use a left-right political spectrum (which I feel is somewhat outdated) to illustrate this point, the further left of center you go, the more radically one would adhere to these stances. This means that although these stances are Liberal trademarks, not all who call themselves "Liberal" would claim them, at least not in every case.

Therefore, they are still fallacies of Liberal thought even though not all Liberals would claim to think like that. It's that way with practically every issue that a philosophy addresses; there are some who call themselves "Conservative" who believe that life begins at birth, and others who believe that life begins at conception. Both camps may call themselves Conservative, and to attack one idea or the other is not to make the claim that every Conservative in the world agrees that idea.

So in other words, Anonymous... you're right, but you're attacking points that I never made.

Swedish Mamba,

War rhetoric aside, perhaps my response to Anonymous clarifies my position a bit.

I must respond to one thing you said:

"However, I haven't yet seen why you think the Republican party is so fantastic."

Heh... The Republican party isn't that great. It's just the lesser of many evils. Conservatism is what I stand for, not the Republican party; the Republican party is simply less opposed to my beliefs than other parties.

"Now, I have to fix my daughter some cereal."

Riiiiiiight.

"Thursday, I'm gonna gut you like a fish."

Oh, just like you did last time? *snicker*

And for the record, adding the letter "a" into the middle of a vulgar word does not suddenly make it acceptable...

And finally...

"...if Neo wasn't such a nazi about censorship."

You obviously slept through History class... :-P

Seanny,

Perhaps "true adherents" was inappropriate wording. See my response to Anonymous for clarification regarding my views on the universality of these fallacies.

As for this alleged "Association Fallacy," perhaps you should revise your own argument. An Association Fallacy is essentially the implication that qualities of X are also qualities of Y, simply because X and Y are related. If I had said that, say, "Adolf Hitler was a vegetarian; therefore, Vegetarianism must be evil," that would be an association fallacy. My point, however, was not that Liberalism is bad because it is associated from narcissism; rather, I was making the point that Liberalism is simply Narcissism renamed.

In other words, my point was this:

ABC=X, where X is Liberalism and A, B, and C are its factors.

ABC=Y, where Y is Narcissism and A, B, and C are the same factors as in the previous equation.

Therefore,

X=Y, where X is Liberalism and Y is narcissism.

Therefore, if Y is a negative value, what must X be?

 
At Mon Nov 28, 07:04:00 PM, Blogger jacob.thrasher said...

Mr. Mamba,

1) I am not suppressing ideas, I'm upholding standards on the blog I control. To not do so would be hypocritical.

2) No, por favor. It really doesn't add anything to your comments, in entertainment value or informational value. And it just gives the anti-sheep anonymous more ammunition.

3) ..and who consistently makes it to top court? And who was made the "top seed" in that tournament you refer to? :-P

 
At Mon Dec 12, 02:18:00 PM, Blogger Toad734 said...

So was it this conservative logic that saved all those people in Sudan? Oh wait; they weren't save they were killed under Bush's watch because they had no oil.

I would also point out that in your conservative logic you say that the most likely is always right. So if a store has been robbed and the police show up and see a white guy and a black guy they would shoot the black guy first and ask the white guy if he was ok when in reality the black guy was the one working the counter and the white guy was the robber. So you conservative logic is extremely flawed and not only that, it makes you sound extremely gullible, sheltered and innocent.

The scene which you described in the previous post could very well be a trick and by intruding you leave yourself open to be the sucker of the week, the dead sucker of the week at that.

And there is nothing failed about the logic of encountering this situation and determining that if the attacker planned on killing the children that they would already be dead like the dad. I noticed you didn't really have a comeback for that. You said that I convinced myself that it was a trick in order to run and flee. No, that is not the case and the reason Liberals tend to analyze the situation closer than a conservative would is simple geography and our back grounds. Why do tourists and people from out of town always get hassled by homeless people and scammers? Because, they are the ones who fall for it the quickest. A guy comes up to me and asks me for money because his pregnant wife is in the car I would laugh at him, or actually, he probably wouldn't approach me at all as he would be able to tell that I live in Chicago and would have already heard his line in the past. Someone from the suburbs or a small town (where most conservatives live) would be more likely to be targeted by a person such as this because of the simple fact that they are wet behind the ears, small town, simple folk. That translates into gullibility which is what you would be when you rush towards the scene to help the family and kill the guy with the gun even though the guy with the gun may indeed be the father who just killed the attacker. With you rushing in there with guns blazing you have just killed this kids dad right in front of his eyes thus exposing branches of flawed conservative logic which are gun ownership for all, and shooting first and assessing the situation later.

Congratulations you just ruined a family, killed an innocent man and will now spend the rest of your life in jail. Oh wait, you are conservative so I guess you'll be getting the death penalty since life in prison is another "liberal fallacy". Good thing you aren't selfish.

 
At Thu Dec 15, 04:21:00 PM, Blogger jacob.thrasher said...

Man Toadsie, you're makin' this too easy! I just wish I had more time...

"So was it this conservative logic that saved all those people in Sudan? Oh wait; they weren't save they were killed under Bush's watch because they had no oil."

I love the way you always bring it back around to Bush, like it's supposed to mean something.

Obviously, this is all about oil...

and Halliburton...

and Cheney's really behind it all...

but no wait, it's really all Rove's fault...

even though Cheney's the corrupt puppet master...

and Bush is a stupid warmongering monkey who somehow fooled a coalition of 1/5 of the world's countries into unilaterally attacking Saddam...

in an illegal war that enforced a decade of UN declarations...

AND DON'T FORGET THE ILLUMINATI ALIENS THAT HAVE COME TO STEAL OUR BRAINS!!!

Either give the conspiracy theories a rest, or stop making stupid appeals to rationality and logic, Toad; it's not becoming. And you're really not helping the case for the public school system either.

Oh, and for the record, Sudan produces 500,000 barrels of oil per day. Not exactly the 2.5 million that Iraq currently produces, but not too shabby either.

"I would also point out that in your conservative logic you say that the most likely is always right. So if a store has been robbed and the police show up and see a white guy and a black guy they would shoot the black guy first and ask the white guy if he was ok when in reality the black guy was the one working the counter and the white guy was the robber."

And so, if you can't point it back to Bush, you point it back to race. Brilliant Toad! Somebody throw this man a cookie!

"So you conservative logic is extremely flawed and not only that, it makes you sound extremely gullible, sheltered and innocent."

And your lack of logic makes you sound extremely irrational, sheltered and blind. Oh, you don't think so?

In that last paragraph, you managed to make it clear that you give laws of probability NO credence (irrational).

You made it clear that you view Conservatives as stupid, impulsive and racist (sheltered).

You made it clear that you view having a white man and a black man in the same room as being on the same level as a man holding a woman and children at knifepoint (blind, and sheltered as well).

Toad, you're really gonna have to do better than this. Or better yet, try recognizing the fact that your own logic has failed. If you'd open up your mind just enough to question your own view of things for a moment, you might find that you can let go of your blind hatred, which surely makes your life unnecessarily hard. The kind of stuff you post leads to heart disease, man.

I know that at some point, Christian Conservatives probably treated you badly. That was wrong of them. But please, stop taking it out on us. Stop taking it out on yourself.

I don't have much more time...

"The scene which you described in the previous post could very well be a trick and by intruding you leave yourself open to be the sucker of the week, the dead sucker of the week at that."

My point was that if you had to make a fast decision, would you go with the odds, or would you be caught flat-footed while innocents died? Obviously, in the situation I posed, the fallacies you based your answers on are only good for conspiracy theorists and paranoid megalomaniacs. I hope you see that.

"Someone from the suburbs or a small town (where most conservatives live) would be more likely to be targeted by a person such as this because of the simple fact that they are wet behind the ears, small town, simple folk."

I love it! When in doubt, just cop out! Argumentum ad hominem isn't the best way to go here, Toad. Again, this is misplaced anger (and do I sense a bit of arrogance?).

The entire paragraph from which I pulled that last quote was horrendous, as far as logic goes. You assumed that Conservatives would have entered guns a-blazin', you assumed that the situation is more likely to be a trap, and you assumed that a father would have killed an attacker and then threatened and turned the knife on his own family, as this quote shows:

"That translates into gullibility which is what you would be when you rush towards the scene to help the family and kill the guy with the gun even though the guy with the gun may indeed be the father who just killed the attacker."

I hate to have to do all this to you, Toad, but it just had to be done. How can you refer to Conservatives as gullible, sheltered, innocent, simple, etc. if you have this much trouble dealing with a teenager and a poorly-written post? I began by talking about logical fallacies, and you responded by lecturing me about your various conspiracy theories, and how in a moment where a split-decision is required, the conspiracy theories should be given more credence than laws of probability. Not rational, not logical... just paranoid and at times hateful.

Thanks for the exercise!

Cheers!
Neo

 
At Fri Dec 16, 08:46:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Stop it Neo! After the first paragraph, it was kinda like kicking the puppy because he peed on the rug!
One good smack is enough....then maybe he won't run away, and eventually he might learn something. Even trolls have the capacity.

 
At Fri Dec 16, 03:25:00 PM, Blogger Toad734 said...

But you failed to actually address any of my points and insist on mindless retorts that add up to 0 content.

Sure, poor conservative republicans, cry me a river, everyone hates you and is out to get you but you love everyone (except for, liberals, fags, lesbians, Communists, Muslims, Arabs, non-Christians etc.).

May I remind you that all of your minions here said they would shoot without hesitating. This means that they wouldn't study the situation but merely turn the corner, pull out their gun and shoot. If that is the case how are they to know who the man is holding the knife? If the man is threatening to kill them if they don't meet his demands then that isn't really a split second decision and it implies you have had time to assess the situation. So the wording in you original post is somewhat vague. Either you turn the corner and you have to make the decision or you turned the corner and assessed the situation, which is it?

You pointed out the conservative logic requires little thinking and the most obvious conclusion must be the right one, regardless of how educated that conclusion is. I assume you base that conclusion on probability (or your opinion of what is more likely); in that case in a liquor store robbery (depending on the area) if there are two people in the building, one is black and the other is Korean for instance, statistically who is more likely to be the robber? Based on that, your conservative logic would be to shoot the black guy and assume the Korean is the store owner. That may very well be the case or it could be your logic of the most likely has failed, especially in a place like northern California where Asian gangs are prevalent. In Detroit, sure you have a greater probability of being right.

I may also point out that you were the one who brought up Bush and Iraq, not I. Sudan is hardly a major exporter of oil. I lose more barrels than that running to catch the bus.

You are now putting words in my mouth. I never said the laws of probability have no credibility. At least not for someone who has real world experience; for you, maybe that would be the case. But I never said NO credibility. 8/10 of the time the most obvious is probably the answer and in the real world if I was paranoid enough to carry a gun and I saw the same situation, for more than one second, I would probably shoot, depending on how close the guy was to the other people. As I pointed out, all you gun nuts here just replied by saying blow him away assuming they knew exactly what was going on and that they could actually hit their target.

And again, is it a quick decision or did you have time to hear the attacker say "I am going to kill them if they don't meet my demands"? I hear that, I would take action, but not if I just turned the corner and witnessed the situation, nor would any of you as you would be trying to figure out was running down your leg.

I am having no trouble dealing with a home schooled teenager. Well, I might once you get out in the real world and realize that no one cares about you have to say, no one thinks you’re special, and you no longer have a bug collection to hang out with and realize you have 0 social skill. That could create a bit of problem for the rest of society but for now, I am doing better than you will ever know.

Oh, speaking of liberal vs. conservative I have a great Christmas post up.

 
At Sat Dec 17, 01:32:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Not even taking time to bother with the rest of your pathetic response, I simply have to take issue with your simple minded charcterisation of home schooled kids as having "0 social skills".
There ARE indeed examples of kids who WERE actually sheltered too much by there home-schooling parents, and they are rather sad to see, but there are MANY examples of "social shipwrecks" within school systems; based on your sad outlook on life, I'd venture to say you are one of those socially inept ones. Indeed, the young man about whom you are making these assumptions is most definately not among those unfotunate few. In fact, the selective socialization practiced by this young gentlemans parents has resulted in a 16 year old who is not only excelling in his first semester English 101 and Comparative Politics class at a small, prestigious private liberal arts college, but also ends up being the spokesman for his peer review group.
When dropped into a crowd of strangers, he invariably ends up with a group of friends. One of the best things about him is that he befriends those who are awkward and just don't seem to fit in (unlike his "schooled peers" who generally operate with a sort of "Lord of The Flies" mentality).

Whatever it is that makes you so sad, little toad boy, you really need to get a life.

 
At Sat Dec 17, 04:31:00 PM, Blogger jacob.thrasher said...

I failed to respond, Toadie? Maybe it was because of your middle-school grammar. Maybe it was because of the middle-school logic that renders you incapable of anything but argumentum ad hominem. Maybe it was the excess of generalizations and assumptions that no self-respecting rhetor would make. I don't know, but if I failed to respond to any points, it's probably because you failed to MAKE any valid points.

Again I say, we started out talking about several fallacies, and as a response, you lectured me about conspiracy theories. And then you pointed the argument back to Bush and oil. Brilliant, Toad! Come on, fess up! You're really just an angry middle-schooler whose parents never hugged you, aren't you?

"May I remind you that all of your minions here said they would shoot without hesitating."

Hmm? You can't read.

Or you made gross generalizations.

Either one would fit your debate tactics.

Now, please try to follow the conversation. I will repeat myself no more on this topic.

The entire point of the scenario was to see what we would each do in a situation where lengthy assessment is likely to lead to the death of innocents; would we engage in lengthy assessment anyway, trusting conspiracy theories, or would we go with the numbers and make a rational decision. THAT WAS THE POINT. If you truly cannot understand that, then do us all a favor and leave right now. IF, however, you care to stop arguing ad hominem and off topic, you're welcome to stay.

"And again, is it a quick decision or did you have time to hear the attacker say 'I am going to kill them if they don't meet my demands'?"

I never specified that. All I said was that somehow, that fact is known to you. Maybe you heard it before you rounded the corner. Maybe you found out by random chance over the course of your entire life. Maybe God told you. I dunno, it doesn't really matter.

If you want to say that that fact is suspected rather than known, that's fine, and you'd probably get a different response from all present. As the scenario stands, however, you are left looking like you can't even interpret a simple paragraph, arguing about how we don't yet know something that it was stipulated that we know. Pay attention.

"I am having no trouble dealing with a home schooled teenager."

Sure fooled me. For most people, ad hominem attacks and strawman arguments are signs of desperation, not everyday tools of debate.

"Well, I might once you get out in the real world and realize that no one cares about you have to say, no one thinks you’re special, and you no longer have a bug collection to hang out with and realize you have 0 social skill. That could create a bit of problem for the rest of society but for now, I am doing better than you will ever know."

I have more friends than you'll ever have, Toadhead, and enough social skills and education that I don't have to spend my days seeking out people 10+ years my junior just to knock down straw men in front of them (and fail at that). So forget that talking point; the more you use it, the more sheltered you appear.

 
At Mon Dec 19, 02:06:00 PM, Blogger Toad734 said...

It’s not ad hominem. Your background, life experience, prejudices and biases, upbringing etc. all come into play in a discussion such as this. That is why someone like me approaches the situation with caution and suspicion and someone like you wouldn’t think abstractly about the situation and would go based on your instincts and your perception of the situation which based on your life experiences. Your experiences tell you that any situation such as this must be exactly how it appears and that there would be no reason for someone to stage such an elaborate event just to draw your interest. The same would apply to a situation where a man comes running out of an alley telling me to help him get his wife and baby out of their burning car and all I have to do is follow him down the dark alley. The Christian thing to do would be to help someone in need and in danger and that may very well be what you do and there is a chance that there is indeed a burning car containing a mother and child. However, based on all the scams I have seen in my life, I wouldn’t follow this guy anywhere and would laugh at him if he came at me with that story. So my background of going to public schools, having friends who have been murdered and or mugged, living in the city, and my general disdain for humanity, gives me a different perspective than a kid who has never been exposed to these types of people or situations, thus my logic has many more factors and variables to deal with in calculating probability.

Now, you attacking the grammar of a rebuttal post that I spent 1 minute writing is an ad hominem attack. You know I wasn’t writing an essay to gain acceptance into college and it was just a response to some 16 year old kid’s weblog.

As far as having time to assess the situation it is implied that if you heard a sentence spoken by the attacker that you were witnessing this event and you were within earshot. Now your scenario is even more vague and you apparently still have not thought the situation through after several weeks so how could you say you could accurately do so in a split second decision? Thus the fallacy of conservative logic; I want to do what I want to do, and what I think is right is right, there is no gray area, only black and white.

Tell your mom to quit coming to your defense; this exactly what I am talking about when I say “sheltered home school kids”.

 
At Mon Dec 19, 02:56:00 PM, Blogger jacob.thrasher said...

This is the last comment on this thread.

"It’s not ad hominem. Your background, life experience, prejudices and biases, upbringing etc. all come into play in a discussion such as this."

And if we were here to discuss this so-called "life experience," then you'd have a right to bring it into the debate. We're discussing two philosophical systems (actually one philosophical system until you came along), and you persist in talking about oil, homeschooling and your conspiracy theories as if these things justify your ignorance of probability.

Judging from the tone of your comment, I am left to imagine that you would rather allow evil to be done than risk injury to yourself:

However, based on all the scams I have seen in my life, I wouldn’t follow this guy anywhere and would laugh at him if he came at me with that story. So my background of going to public schools, having friends who have been murdered and or mugged, living in the city, and my general disdain for humanity, gives me a different perspective than a kid who has never been exposed to these types of people or situations, thus my logic has many more factors and variables to deal with in calculating probability."

To an extent, I'd say you'd be right to not follow that chap you mentioned anywhere. However, that was not the scenario I posed.

I asked what you would do if you were immediately certain of the situation, regardless of how you reached that certainty. You responded by saying you would investigate further; a wise decision, if there were anything left to investigate. As things stood though, the situation was perfectly clear, and I never stated otherwise; therefore, any discussion your schooling, my schooling, or oil in Iraq is exposed as a strawman argument.

This is what has marked all of your comments on this thread so far. I essentially stipulated certainty in an imaginary scenario, and you immediately set up a strawman by lecturing me on how we can't really be certain, and how my homeschooling is bad because you assumed I didn't know this.

"Now, you attacking the grammar of a rebuttal post that I spent 1 minute writing is an ad hominem attack. You know I wasn’t writing an essay to gain acceptance into college and it was just a response to some 16 year old kid’s weblog."

Just givin' you a taste of your own medicine, dude. What, you don't remember "meeoric dust?"

"As far as having time to assess the situation it is implied that if you heard a sentence spoken by the attacker that you were witnessing this event and you were within earshot. Now your scenario is even more vague..."

I held no pretense of being specific, Einstein. HOW you came to any of this knowledge was inconsequencial in the terms of the scenario, and yet it seems that you STILL don't understand that. And you speak of your public schooling as though it's done great things for your logic...

"...you apparently still have not thought the situation through after several weeks so how could you say you could accurately do so in a split second decision?"

What's this, more arrogance? Sure, I must not have thought it through, since I don't agree with you. Fact is, Toad, you're the one who has failed to think things through, because YOU are the only one who failed to understand the purpose of my original scenario. YOU are the person who chose to argue against certainty where certainty was stipulated, and not even your fellow Libs chose to sink to such idiocy.

"Thus the fallacy of conservative logic; I want to do what I want to do, and what I think is right is right, there is no gray area, only black and white."

Riiiight... and you've proven this... how? By arguing that in an imaginary scenario where certainty is stipulated, one still cannot be certain? That is the gist of your argument through this entire thread, at least when you decided to stop talking about oil and homeschooling. Your strawman arguments and ad hominem attacks have wasted enough of my time, and that is why I'm closing this thread. If you truly cannot comprehend what eleven other people were able to grasp instantly, then you have no right to debate the topic at hand. If interpreting words on a screen is so difficult for you, then you are only making yourself look like a fool by debating what you think you've read.

Sorry to close this thread, but your faux debate tactics are merely wasting your time and mine.

Oh, and one last thing to respond to...

"Tell your mom to quit coming to your defense; this exactly what I am talking about when I say 'sheltered home school kids'."

Are you referring to the most recent Anonymous? If so, you've done a terrible job of refuting their point, choosing to attack the speaker and a strawman rather than the point the speaker made.

But then, what's new?

 

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