Total Depravity
Okay, for my first foray into posting about Calvinism, I'll simply ask this question, in hopes that one of my kind Calvinist readers will explain it to me:
How do you define "Total Depravity?"
Of course, I believe in Total Depravity, but perhaps not in the same sense that Calvinists do... then again, we may completely agree, I don't know. Hence the fact that I asked the question.
I understand that Man's Fall led to a sin nature in all men, and thus Total Depravity, but beyond that, I don't think I fully understand the Calvinist point of view. Is Total Depravity the belief (or does it encompass the belief) that we are "incapable of doing any good on our own," or is it the idea that we all have the tendency to sin, and no amount of good works on our part can ever save us from that sin?
I would just research it myself, but this is quicker and I wanted to post before I go to bed. Now if only I can get the Great and Powerful David Ketter to watch my back and kick me in the head if I say something stupid.
Er, when I say something stupid...
posted by jacob.thrasher @ 4/08/2006 10:00:00 PM
11 comments
11 Comments:COMMENT POLICY
Please refrain from the use of foul language. Any failure to comply will result in comment deletion.
Hey Neo! David covered it well...I'll stick around too...I got some stuff you might find useful as you continue on! Looking forward to em!
I think the main point of Total Depravity is expressed in Isaiah 64:6, "We have all become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
We all fade like a leaf,
and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away."
It is not that unbelievers cannot do good works, but that in an unregenerated state, our good works are polluted because of our sin. A lot of people can do good things, but without Christ, their good works are meaningless.
I love how Lindsey explained it in her post on her blog and I'd encourage you to check it out here: http://princesslindsey.blogspot.com/2005/11/total-depravity.html
I agree with David.
Well, I had a nice long comment written up the other day... and then Netnanny kicked me off the internet and I lost it all. *sigh* Parental controls are so lame.
The gist of my comment was this: I believe that man CAN do good things, but can never himself become good apart from Christ. I believe this because, according to the Calvinist view of Total Depravity, every action man makes is totally depraved, so to speak. Every action apart from Christ should be entirely sinful, as Calvin seemed to claim in this passage quoted by Lindsey:
"Let it stand, therefore, as an indubitable truth, which no engines can shake, that the mind of man is so entirely alienated from the righteousness of God, that he cannot conceive, desire, or design anything but what is wicked, distorted, foul, impure and iniquitous; that his heart is so thoroughly envenomed by sin, that it can breathe out nothing but corruption and rottenness; that if some men occasionally make a show of goodness, their mind is ever interwoven with hypocrisy and deceit, their soul inwardly bound with fetters of wickedness."
If all this were true, however, then shouldn't mankind have descended into chaos long ago? If our every action is made as a result of our own total depravity, our own complete saturation with sin, then from the Calvinist point of view, shouldn't our actions be equally saturated with sin? And if every decision we make is solely and perfectly sinful, then it would stand to reason that apart from Christ, we would take every opportunity to sin, and to sin as totally as possible.
Then, what of the people who, though they sin, do not compound one sin with another? If our every action is aimed at sinning as completely as possible, why would any depraved criminal merely mug a man in a dark alley and take his wallet? This is certainly a sinful act, but in refraining from killing his victim, he has done the good act of letting him live. Or in any event, such a comparatively kind act would be viewed as less evil, and therefore not totally depraved.
At the same time, we know that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God... thus it stands to reason that man truly is totally depraved. I do not dispute this. I only say that man can do good apart from Christ, though that good is completely meaningless when it comes to determining ones eternal fate.
I agree with Neo at this point. Another thing though, if it is as the Calvinists say, that our every good work is because God made us do it, then did He also make everyone else who has done a wrong thing do that wrong thing? What I mean is, if He is the only one who makes people do good then isn't He the only one who makes them do bad as well? Because if we cannot do good of our own then we can not do bad of our own either, isn't that right?
Neo,
Calvin was not saying that everything man does is evil. He says that men "occasionally make a show of goodness." However, our souls are bound in wickedness. As you said, we cannot do anything good of eternal value apart from Christ.
"When tempted no one should say "God is tempting me." for God cannot be tempted by evil nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full grown, gives birth to death. Don't be decieved, my dear brothers. Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights who does not change like shifting shadows."
So there you have it. We are the ones who make ourselves sin because of our evil desires. It's our natural inclination to do bad when left to ourselves.
Its Satan who tempts us, God does not make us sin.
This is why we need God, because we are not capable from breaking away from the bondage of sin. It may seem like those who are not Christians can still do good, but they are enslaved to sin and to Satan. They don't have the freedom to try stop doing wrong and try doing good. I have experienced this first hand. Time and time again I've tried myself to stop myself from doing a particular sin and find I can't do it. Christ is my savior! He is the one who has taken me from bondage and given me the freedom to not sin.
Ok this is probably a disorganized mess of an explanation but I read your comment on my blog and saw this post and decided I had to comment. Thanks for visiting my blog!
I have uh, no time right now...
Thanks to everyone who is helping me clear up the issue. Since I'm about to leave, I'll just address David's comment:
"Again, I understand your logic. The primary element missing here is the fact that God doesn't rank sin. One sin or two trillion sins in a day are all the same to Him when it comes down to judgment because 'he who breaks but one commandment breaks the whole of the law.'"
You're right, but if Total Depravity is so intrinsically tied to works as Calvin suggested, then a Totally Depraved man would sin at every turn. So what of the men who do not sin at every turn?
One sin is enough to separate us from God... That is why I believe Total Depravity deals with our spiritual state. However, to say that no man can do any good is to say that all men must do evil at all times (apart from Christ, that is). Now, if on a particular day, a man lies once, were his actions for the day totally depraved? No. HE is totally depraved, but his actions were by and large good ones, and by no means reflect the depth of his depravity.
Calvin tied works and Total Depravity together far too closely... one sin is all that is necessary to separate us from God for eternity, and one sin is all that is necessary to prove that we are all totally depraved apart from Christ. One sin makes us unrighteous... but that unrighteousness does not mean that we can do no good on our own. It only means that the good we do is inconsequential in terms of our salvation.
Maybe I'm just fighting windmills here, but if so then I need to get my definitions straightened out. That passage by Calvin suggested that the only good man can ever do apart from Christ is good that is ultimately motivated by selfishness... MVB directly stated that we can do no good. But now I want to know, if we can do no good, do you mean we can simply do no eternal good (meaning we cannot affect our salvation with our works), or we can do nothing good at all?
The Bible teaches that man is spiritually "dead". A dead person is incapable of choosing life. In their fallen state they are slaves to a sinful heart that cannot choose good.
I would agree with Ketter that God influences men with common grace. The Bible teaches that God can and does, restrain men for sinning. But I would differ on the point that if God influences them, they will do the good works. Whether or not they do them, depends not on the person, but on the selective work of God.
Neo:
As an earnest, albeit unlearned, Calvinist, maybe I can help you out a little, here.
You're right, but if Total Depravity is so intrinsically tied to works as Calvin suggested, then a Totally Depraved man would sin at every turn. So what of the men who do not sin at every turn?
Here’s the rub--- anyone who is not a Christian, DOES sin at every turn. Whether his deeds are “morally good” or not—i.e., telling the truth, remaining faithful to his wife, not stealing, whatever—if the man is not a Christian, his actions are sin in the eyes of God.
The reason for this is extremely theological/philosophical. The Bible teaches clearly that all external “actions” have their source in the mind. People act on what they believe. This is why Jesus could assert, in the parable of the fig tree, “by their fruit ye shall know them”, and James could claim that “faith without works is dead.” By our actions, our beliefs are shown.
So what does this mean? Doesn’t this simply uphold your point, which is that if a man does “good”, therefore he believes “good”? Well, no. The Bible places “belief” as man’s religious starting point, as opposed to “actions”---which is what Jesus meant: actions in themselves are nothing; it is the belief which undergirds them that gives them meaning.
So, very, very, very simply: if your belief is wrong, then whatever “action” you do, your action is tainted by your belief. If a secular humanist preaches that a man should remain faithful to his wife, God views that as sin—because the humanist does not say so out of belief in God, but out of belief in man. What does Paul say in Romans 1:24-25?
“Therefore, God gave them over to uncleaness, to dishonor their bodies amongst themselves, in the lusts of their hearts, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator…”
The Bible is clear: anything, ANYTHING, done out of subservience to any “god” rather than God is sin. Because even a visible outward conformity to God’s moral law is condemned if there is no belief: witness Christ’s anger against the Pharisees.
This is why Calvin could boldly preach “Total Depravity”. Because he (and his followers) understood that morality without God is the same as immorality—they are both belief systems that ignore God, and are therefore both evil.
As a quick extra, let me recommend some books for you to peruse; they might help a little.
1. The Five Points of Calvinism: Defined, Defended, Documented by David N. Steele and Curtis C. Thomas.
--A short primer on Calvinism, but very crucial and concise, Includes a great bibliography at the back for further study on “specialized” issues.
2. The Sovereignty of God, by Arthur W. Pink
--Not precisely on the topic of total depravity, but Pink does a splendid job of showing how God is in control of everything; the major theological platform of “anti-total-depravityism” denies this tenet. Sort of a round-about defense of TD. By the way, anything you can find by Pink is worth reading.
3. The Doctrine of Man, by Gordon Clark
--Really essential reading. Gordon Clark, the highly controversial hyper-Calvinist (although he would probably reject the label—he was more Calvinist than Calvin himself!!), writes a short and devastatingly thorough exposition on the nature of man, the nature of sin, and of man’s fall from grace. Probably the best “one-stop” book on TD around.
As an extra-extra, if you’re serious about a thorough grounding in Biblical theology and its applications, I recommend you print out and read this article by John W. Robbins:
http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=125
There’s a whole library of books listed in there… enough intellectual food for a lifetime!
Post a Comment
<< Home